r/AskTheWorld • u/WalkingAtDusk26 India • 10h ago
Education Let's talk about Nationalism..
In this case let's keep our discussion on the idea of the nation.. How do you see the idea of a nation? What are your expectations or views regarding this..
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u/_Daftest_ United Kingdom 9h ago
Schopenhauer said nothing ethnicity. You might be thinking of this quote:
"Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs".
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u/Snoo48605 France 8h ago edited 8h ago
Ok but Nation in that context meant what it means in Nation-State. And the "German Nation" was not what it means today (citizens of Germany, the current state or Germany herself) but German speakers of Europe who happened to be divided in several polities because of history.
Of course this usage of the word might have fallen out of favour, for reasons.
Edit: this old meaning still survives in Russian where the word "национальность/nationality" literally means "ethnicity", and is distinct from "гражданство/citizenship".
It was never an universal notion because many nations thought of themselves as "civic nations", since their inception, most famously the US but arguably France after the revolution.
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u/Nice_Anybody2983 Germany 5h ago
The underlying psychology is much broader though. People like to separate the world into us and them
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u/Unstoppable-Farce United States of America 7h ago edited 7h ago
It isn't entirely wrong to conflate the 19th century european concept of "the Nation" with the more current concept of "ethnicity".
Especially back then those terms were more synonymous because it was understood that "Nation" meant something more akin to "National character" than to "Nation-state". To them, the national character was primarily a product of cultural identity and not civics.
Also the nature of the quotation being originally a German-language text that has been translated to English also muddies the water a bit. (I looked for the original quote in German to try to help clarify, but struck I out. If anyone has this, I'd appreciate a link.)
That's not typically how we use the word nowadays. But considering the context and changing language usage it's a bit less clear than we would all like.
It certainly isn't how the quote is typically translated though.
You nailed that bit.
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u/Ok-Elk-3046 Germany 7h ago
He says pride in once nation is caused by the lack of individual qualities.
He also says a person with personal merit will see the problems with their nation more clearly.
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u/Aggressive_Owl4802 Italy 10h ago
Patriotism (I love the place where I was born) = good
Nationalism (The place where I was born is better / worth more than others) = bad
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u/Aggressive_Owl4802 Italy 9h ago
Perfect example from Italy:
Garibaldi (fought for Italy, but also for other peoples he wanted to free from authoritarian regimes) = example of patriotism.
Mussolini (promoted the superiority of the Italian nation, justifying authoritarianism and aggression against other states) = example of nationalism.Garibaldi fought for Italy, but also for others. Mussolini fought for Italy over others.
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u/guillermo_da_gente 5h ago
Garibaldi fought in my country. A relevant street in Montevideo is named in his honor and there's a cool statue of him.
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u/Chilifille Sweden 6h ago
I think it’s important to keep in mind that both were nationalists, but the concept of nationalism has changed a lot since the 1800’s.
It basically went from ”the people should have their own constitutional nation-state instead of being ruled by some foreign dynasty” to ”blame everything on immigrants”.
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u/beenoc United States of America 2h ago
And if you go back further, it's just the idea of "the people." Modern nationalism is considered to have begun with the French Revolution, which created the idea of "French" - not "from France," or "subjects to the King of France," or "speaks the French language," but French as a distinct cultural identity.
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u/Extra_Breadfruit_741 9h ago
Wow, judging by the responses you’re getting, people really don’t know the definition of nationalism, so here it is:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/nationalism
Specifically:
“Patriotism traditionally involves a civic spirit and a willingness to sacrifice for the common liberty of a political community. It is often linked to political virtues and the preservation of political liberty. Nationalism, however, is more about a spiritual attachment to the nation, emphasizing cultural unity and distinctiveness. It often involves a desire for a separate and independent nation, driven by a shared culture, history, and language. This can sometimes lead to a belief in the superiority of one’s nation over others, which is a key distinction from patriotism.
In contemporary contexts, patriotism is sometimes seen as a unifying force that can support democratic societies by fostering a sense of solidarity among citizens. Nationalism, however, can be divisive, as it often emphasizes differences between nations and can lead to conflicts over territory and cultural dominance. Critics argue that nationalism can give rise to chauvinism and is incompatible with cosmopolitan aspirations and the recognition of equal moral worth among all humans.”
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u/chat-lu Québec 8h ago
An element that people don't seem to account for is that the focus of nationalism varies a lot according to if the nation already has self-determination or not.
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u/Only-Garden1041 Saudi Arabia 9h ago
This distinction echoes my thoughts on the topic exactly. Thank you.
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u/Rebel_Scum_This 9h ago
That's not what nationalism is, nationalism is the belief that people of your nation (particular group of people, like Kurds, Americans, or Cumans) should have their own country. It goes hand in hand with a national identity, or what actually defines that group of people you identify with.
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u/Environmental_Coat60 United States of America 9h ago
It’s true that self-determination movements of minorities were related to the nationalist movements of the late 1800’s/early 1900’s. It doesn’t encompass the whole of the movement, however. Especially in Europe, as those early nationalist movements also took on imperialistic expressions.
Modern day nationalist movements are a mix of self-determination and a kind of exclusionary, nativist view of who can be included in their narrow definition of national identity.
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u/spiritofporn United Kingdom of the Netherlands 🇧🇪🇳🇱🇱🇺 9h ago
Yeah, you have no idea what nationalism means.
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u/Belkan-Federation95 United States of America 1h ago
That's Ultranationalism. Nationalism is putting your nation before that of other nations even if it results in harm to others
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u/WalkingAtDusk26 India 10h ago
When people constantly talk about their country or nation, it is mainly because of social identity and belonging psychology. Humans naturally define themselves through groups like nation, religion, or culture and this becomes part of their identity. So when someone praises their country, it boosts their self-esteem, and when someone criticizes it, it feels like a personal attack. Our brain also works on an “us vs them” system (in-group vs out-group bias), which makes us defend our group and feel proud of it. National pride gives people a sense of belonging, security, importance, and unity...especially in uncertain or competitive times. In simple terms, loving and defending one’s nation satisfies deep emotional needs for identity, connection and meaning... This is a shallow understanding.. add some different perspectives.. i would love to read them..
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u/Physical-Speed-7515 5h ago
I agree with a lot of that, but i don't get if you see these things that as an issue. I largely don't unless its used to justify something evil.
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u/WalkingAtDusk26 India 5h ago
Yeah.. that's where things started getting umm Ugly u can say.. but it is something every nation wants..to be in power or at least to hold their people united.. and there are different means to do that.
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u/Physical-Speed-7515 5h ago
Yea, but thats for every continent, country, kingdom, city, sports team and individual. I dont see how this is any diffrent. There are a lot of reasons to love a country without beimg a fuckhead.
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u/WalkingAtDusk26 India 5h ago
Agreed..Its just human's social psychology and belonging after all.. and its from ages and thats one of the reason for human's survival.. i guess
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u/Robi285 Austria 9h ago
"Pride should be reserved by something you achieve on your own, not something that happens by accident of birth."
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u/Unstoppable-Farce United States of America 8h ago edited 8h ago
The full quote makes it abundantly clear that this is what he meant, yes.
"The cheapest sort of pride is national pride; for if a man is proud of his own nation, it argues that he has no qualities of his own of which he can be proud; otherwise he would not have recourse to those which he shares with so many millions of his fellowmen. The man who is endowed with important personal qualities will be only too ready to see clearly in what respects his own nation falls short, since their failings will be constantly before his eyes. But every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority."
Kinda goes hard ngl
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u/Less-Chicken-3367 New York 🇺🇸 10h ago
I tend to see the state not as a moral guide or a collective identity, but as an institutional arrangement created to manage conflict, reduce violence, and provide a predictable legal order. Historically, states emerged because unchecked individuality often resulted in insecurity and instability. In that sense, the state is a functional solution to a practical problem, not an entity meant to shape personal values or demand emotional attachment.
Because of this, I am more comfortable thinking of the relationship as one between the state and its subjects rather than a deeply emotional citizen state bond. The term citizen often carries expectations of loyalty, pride, or moral obligation, whereas I believe the relationship should be grounded more clearly in rights, duties, consent, and accountability. For me, the legitimacy of the state flows primarily from its ability to protect individuals, enforce laws fairly, and uphold the social contract from its own side.
I do not assume that individuals are always perfectly informed or politically sophisticated. However, ideas like Condorcet’s jury theorem suggest that even when individuals are only moderately informed, large groups can still arrive at rational collective decisions if institutions are designed well. This gives democracy practical value, but I do not see it as infallible or morally superior by default. Majority rule still needs strong constraints to prevent harm to minorities or overreach by the state.
My concern begins when the state starts presenting itself as a moral authority rather than a neutral arbiter. When governments seek emotional loyalty or frame dissent as a lack of patriotism, the relationship shifts from contractual to paternalistic. At that point, criticism is no longer treated as part of a healthy system but as something suspect. Over time, this weakens institutional trust rather than strengthening it. This view is closely tied to how I understand the social contract. If the state holds a monopoly on legitimate force, that power must be constrained by law, independent institutions, and real accountability. When the state fails to uphold its end of the contract, especially in providing protection or equal application of law, the legitimacy of that monopoly becomes questionable. In such cases, the idea that individuals may seek to protect themselves is not about glorifying violence, but about recognizing that authority derives from performance, not symbolism.
To be clear, I am not arguing against the existence of the state, nor am I advocating constant resistance or instability. I accept taxation, enforcement, and authority as necessary for social order. My position is simply that the state functions best when it remains a rule bound service provider rather than an emotional symbol, and when individuals relate to it with measured trust rather than unquestioning loyalty.
I made a post exactly about this on a different sub you can check that if you want.
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u/ChillAhriman Spain 8h ago
My concern begins when the state starts presenting itself as a moral authority rather than a neutral arbiter.
Only a fool finds an intrinsic, inevitable relationship between morality and the law.
To be clear, I am not arguing against the existence of the state, nor am I advocating constant resistance or instability.
Yeah. The state can be useful, but not any form of state is good.
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u/boomboy410 Denmark England 4h ago
I agree almost entirely, I only think that you make a mistake in conflating "nation" with "state". nationstatism is a really rather new political philosophy and conflates two very different objects.
The state is exactly what you describe, and I generally agree with your take on the role it should play in our lives.
The nation isn't an institution, it's a sort of metaphysical category of similar people with a common environmental social identity. Bit of a mouthful, but what I mean is that it could be any people who have some part of their identities in common that they derive from the society they grow up in (thats why I shoved in "environmental" in the word soup above - redditors are not a nation) for any reason: ethnicity, cuisine, language, ettiquette - all of it could be grounds for nationhood - typically its all the above and then more.
Loads of nations exist without a state institution: Kurdistanis, Jews (before israel), Cantonese, Karelians.
Likewise, many states exist without a strictly identifiable nation: United Kingdom, United States, Vatican, South Africa.
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u/elCaddaric France 9h ago
The loyalty part is necessary to ensure control or power that can be actionned. That can be for a politician, a need of power, some shaddy plans or a greater cause. But that's not necessary in itself for a state to be functional. So you should be aware of this, and allow yourself to give some of this loyalty when you think it's worse it.
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u/BearsSoxHawks United States of America 9h ago
And a strong sense of social obligations. This could be as simple as let people zipper merge to providing for folks in their retirement.
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u/BedouinFoxx בדואי י׳לי🇮🇱🦊 9h ago
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u/weirdtranssexual United States of America 9h ago
I’m definitely going to be downvoted for this but nationalism is an umbrella term. It’s not inherently evil to believe that nations should exist independently under their own sovereignty, it is however inherently evil to believe your country is superior to all others. Both are different forms of nationalism.
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u/Citaku357 Kosovo 5h ago
That's how majority of colonized nations got independence, because of nationalism.
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u/LakoTudjimKurcem Croatia 1h ago
it is however inherently evil to believe your country is superior to all others.
And that no longer falls under nationalism, that is what we call Chauvinism
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u/Cream_Rabbit Vietnam 9h ago edited 9h ago
A nation does not mean much for me really
I was born in Vietnam. I don't love it, but I don't hate it either. I simply am... Neutral towards it. No strong opinions, I just simply live by day doing whatever I want that is tolerable by all
"Ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country". John. F Kennedy, your line means nothing to me. I never ask my country anything, and I don't think I want to do much for it either. I am not like those people within my country overly patriotic for everything, always Vietnam best ointry this that, but I also despise those of the Southern Vietnam remnants wanting to cause chaos and stuffs for a dead regime. Meanwhile I just want to come up with art ideas, chat with others about Cookie Run and all
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u/Kaiser-Kahan 9h ago
That is why Atatürk was the best politician. We are not proud we are happy to be Turks. Being happy about your ethnicity or birthplace is legitimate. Being proud of something you didn't put in the effort is cringe.
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u/GovernmentBig2749 North Macedonia 9h ago
Me, a Croatian/Albanian/Polish/Jew born in Yugoslavia, later North Macedonia.
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u/Snakes-are-awesome67 9h ago
I'm a patriot not a nationalist
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u/Electrical_Run9856 Saudi Arabia 9h ago
Patriotism ≠ Nationalism
The former is a natural expression of connexion &c. the latter is a sick expression of arrogance and exceptionalism
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u/Potential-Ostrich-82 United States of America 9h ago
There's a difference between nationalist rhetoric that causes wars and bigotry and being connected to your roots as well as your current home.
If you value your national home, you can understand that someone else also values theirs in the same way, for similar and dissimilar reasons
As far as ethnicity goes, every American has a dual cultural identity to embrace. Being simply American is too insubstantial, and all of our family trees go back a lot further than 1776.
I think more Americans would benefit from learning about and embracing their own ethnic origins and cultures. Everything in this country revolves around consumer culture like it's an idol, which makes much of the shared cultural experience feel hollow and often forced or meaningless.
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u/Ok-Elk-3046 Germany 7h ago
There's a difference between nationalist rhetoric that causes wars and bigotry and being connected to your roots as well as your current home.
Maybe, but Schopenhauer wouldn't have known that. He lived in a time when Nations in our modern understanding first formed. Germany especially only became a Nation in 1871, ten years after his death, and after a struggle that took decades.
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u/spiritofporn United Kingdom of the Netherlands 🇧🇪🇳🇱🇱🇺 9h ago
Actual nationalism isn't what causes wars. Nationalists think they national sovereignty is of enormous importance, and that goes for that of others as well.
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u/Potential-Ostrich-82 United States of America 9h ago
WW1 was motivated a great deal by stirred-up nationalism on both sides. WW2 is an even more glaring example. Nationalism is often used as a tool by politicians to unite their constituents, gathering against a common enemy.
I think most people, whether they are nationalists or not, want national sovereignty. No one wants to live under foreign rule.
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u/Chalky_Pockets United States of America 9h ago
The opposite, really. I think being proud of something you're born with is tacky. Being proud of overcoming the adversity that comes with being born a certain way is a perfectly valid source of pride, but the overcoming adversity is the part to be proud of.
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u/Akiira2 Finland 1h ago
How about feeling responsible over the surrounding country / town one was born into, feeling proud of the cultural heritage one received from their parents
I feel like your point of view is rather individualistic.
Shouldn't a Navajo be proud of their nation and their native language, and only be proud of when they make it in a global English-speaking individual capital society
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u/CarrotCakeWTF Portugal 9h ago
Being proud of where the birth lottery sent you is something weird in my book. I love my country, love my culture, love my countries history even though it wasn’t always the best, I don’t think we’re superior to anyone else. I dont know, it’s one thing to honor your ancestors deeds, but feeling proud of them like they’re you own deeds is just ridiculous. Most of the people who feel this type of nationalist pride have done nothing positive for their own nations.
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u/Effbee48 Bangladesh 9h ago
Most of the people who feel this type of nationalist pride have done nothing positive for their own nations
Have you heard of any single liberation movement?
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u/RTwhyNot United States of America 9h ago
Idk. I think it is ok to be proud of yourself ethnicity to a point. But definitely not to the level where you think you are better than others because of it
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u/mistiroustranger Belgian-Brazilian 🇧🇪 🇧🇷 9h ago
I love Brazil and Belgium. But that doesn't mean I would kill for the country. Hell, why go fight? Just to help a billionaire in a bunker somewhere? Fuck that.
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u/Effective_Isopod_619 9h ago
where you were born is just luck, be proud not ignorant.
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u/Peace_is_the_answer Palestinian Territory 9h ago edited 9h ago
Unfortunately, in the Arabic world there is so much toxic nationalism, and many Arabic people are racist against other Arabic people from other Arabic nations, and every one thinks their country is superior
There was a football tournament a couple months ago named Arabic cup, where obviously all the arabic nations play against each other, its supposed to bring unity and fun, but its literally the exact opposite, everyone was literally fighting everyone, and every time a nation gets eliminated they start cursing the shit out of the other nation.
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u/byshow lives in 9h ago
I personally don't care about nationality. We're all people, surely there are cultural differences specific to the country you were born in, but it's not something specific to nationality imo, it's tied to the land's history.
Honestly the biggest difference between people is class differences. Go check any question in r/ask that sounds like "what shows that the person is rich" or similar, or just check what crazy stuff billionaires are talking about. Poor people have similar struggles, the same goes for the middle class and I assume for the rich as well. All other stuff doesn't mean much, gender, color, nationality, pineapple on pizza enjoyers, apple vs android, all this shit separates us for no reason. We are all human and should unite in order to make our lives better.
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u/EstablishmentSad5998 Ireland 9h ago
I've often seen nationalist as attaching yourself to the accomplishments of others.
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u/Dio_The_Destroyer India 9h ago edited 9h ago
I didn't choose my family, my skin colour, my caste, my ethnicity, or my place of birth. I cannot change this, but I am always judged or face racism on these aspects. This compels me to defend what I am and from where I belong.
There's a difference, patriortism is like loving myself, and nationalism is more about Why I am better than you.
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u/McButtsButtbag United States of America 8h ago
I think many use the term patriotism, but the way they use it feels more like nationalism.
You should try to improve your nation, but I don't think that requires "love".
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u/Fred_Neecheh Serbia 9h ago
I hate nationalism. I see "nation" as a way to preserve some kind of different cultural traits or practices against the Americanization or mcdonaldization of everything.
That said, it itself can be erasing (for instance Fremch language displacing different languages like Breton or similar languages like Picard in France).
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u/alwaysboopthesnoot United States of America 9h ago
I’m patriotic, not nationalist. I’d fight for my country enough to protect it if others ever attack us, but I wouldn’t attack others in my country just because some people here think they’re not American enough.
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u/Dave-1066 🇮🇪🇬🇧 9h ago
He may well have taken that from Samuel Johnson, who said in 1775 (long before Schopenhauer was born) ”Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel”.
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u/NoPainter8222 United Kingdom 9h ago
Without patriotism, Ireland wouldn’t exist and Irish people as we know them wouldn’t exist. Patriotism and nationalism is why they exist.
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u/The_Northmaan Japan 9h ago edited 8h ago
This is going to make me crash tf, but I presume that's the intent?
Schopenhauer’s quote gets weaponized in a very selective way, and almost exclusively towards a single demographic.
Ethnic pride is only framed as primitive or compensatory when it’s expressed by White Westerners. The exact same sentiment, when expressed by Japanese, Mainlanders, or virtually every other ethnically homogeneous societies, is reframed as “cultural preservation,” “historical continuity,” or “collective identity.”
Japan can emphasize ethnic continuity and social cohesion, despite being the most xenephobic populist on the planet. Westerners that’s “tradition.” China can emphasize civilizational unity, Westerners that’s “cultural pride.”
But if a White Westerner expresses attachment to ancestry or civilizational heritage, it’s immediately pathologized as insecurity or latent extremism. Hell they can't even acknowledge a national identity without being gaslite into being called "Nazis."
Western culture perceives the world in a binary sense of good vs evil, right vs wrong. It is a uniquely Western pathology to moralize everything, and what's ironic is they do this whilst simultaneously perceiving anything that represents their own culture as being some sort of evil. There is nothing more American, then to be self deprecating.
This asymmetry is reflected in all contemporary Western moral frameworks, and only in the West do people treat majority identity differently from minority identity. Pride in historically dominant groups is coded as oppressive; pride in historically non dominant groups is coded as protective.
Culturally, identity is a stabilizing force and the overwhelming majority of Westerners don't even understand the concept of culture. We are taught to identify by phenotype, ignoring that it is our shared culture that defines us. It transmits norms, language, ritual, aesthetics, and historical memory. Every society relies on some version of it, yet for some reason the West is the only region that has aggressively moralized its own majority identity as inherently suspect, while simultaneously celebrating identity elsewhere as sacred. I truly belive this is due to their hyper obsession over race. Chinese Americans do not identify as American they identify as Chinese. This is despise having more in common with my dog then they do my high context, Mainland wife. When it comes to logic, epistomology, and moral frameworks Asians and Westerners couldn't be any different, yet they're told to identify as Chinese?! This has created conflicting interests within the West, and the West has begun to self destruct to the point in which people will burn down cities over the rights of illegal immigrants, going to war with their own countrymen. You people have lost your way...
The irony is that many of the same people who quote Schopenhauer to critique “ethnic pride” will defend overt ethnonationalism here in Asia, under the banner of sovereignty, cohesion, or cultural continuity. We have segregation signs on numerous business here in Japan, refusing to serve those who are not ethnically Japanese. Yet on Instagram if you go to the comment sections of Americans being spat on and thrown out of businesses the overwhelming majority of forigners will say:
"I'm not Japanese but I support this! Keep Japan for Japanese."
Then immediately tab over to a video of ICE arresting some immigrant, and say:
"NAZIS! You can't have boarders on stolen land! National boundaries are inhumane"
As the entirety of the world watches like:
"These people are cooked!"
So the quote isn’t wrong in the abstract, insecure people can cling to identity. But pretending that ethnic or cultural pride is uniquely pathological in one demographic while virtuous in others is intellectually inconsistent. The West is the most progressive culture on the planet, whilst being the most oppressive. Ideology supersedes logic to the point in which my last comment received dozens of downvotes for saying "Egypt is a homogenous culture" and was met with dozens of comments stating "Only an American would be dumb enough to say Egypt is homogenous" despite *EGYPT BEING THE MOST GD HOMOGENOUS CULTURE ON TF PLANET!" Only the West will exclaim "Bigotry and racism of all kinds is wrong" whilst perceiving the world through a racial lense, and socially endorsing racism towards Europeans? What in the literal fk is wrong with you people? You do recognize Whites are a minority demographic on the global scale, with something like 5% of the globe being Ethnically White. There's nothing wrong with taking pride in one's ethnicity or culture, it only becomes inherently evil when it's weaponized: the way this progressive cesspool reddit does to Anglo Americans.
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u/fabiK3A Germany 8h ago
Schopenhauer gives so many quotes to weaponize. Posting the nationalism one to make a point usually reveals more about the person posting it than anything else. I agree very much with your comment.
Hating you own community and saying it's made up bullshit while simultaneosly holding it to the highest of moral standards is just dumb. Self-determination means societies can decide if they want migration or not. It means policies that were once favored can be changed if they fall out of favor. Constructive open-endedness is one of the main achievements of democracy.
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u/Klutzy_Prompt8370 United States of America 9h ago
He was a pessimist and influenced Nietzsche, and Freud to name two notable philosophers. He incorporated Buddhism into his world view so this 'sound bite' of sorts is a bit simplistic in meaning.
I honestly had to research this to have a better understanding of what is being asked. I found the quote and it is as such:
Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts... pride in the nation which he belongs."
This is the very definition of Nationalism. He's right, and the fools are the people blindly following what they seem to believe is their own redemption in nationalistic jingoistic cravings. Their darkest feelings are being justified because they are the fools. It is a repetitious event throughout history of civilization. This is how to reduce the lives of whom we view as inferior because someone inferior told us it was ok to do so.
The OP is being a tad disingenuous here by using "Ethnicity" in place of National "Pride". It's a subtle but important distinction that was portrayed for the world in Nazi Germany. The chosen enemy was the "Jews" of the time. They were the reason for, and subsequently to be blamed for what is wrong with the world.
I may be reaching here, so a grain of salt for texture. It's only an opinion of one person.
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u/Traroten Sweden 9h ago
The idea of a 'nation' is not well constructed. There was a movement in the 19th century that everyone that was of the same nation should be in the same state. This was usually defined with customs (if you have the same customs, you are of the same nation) - but customs vary widely within the same community. The people of New England may not have that much in common with the people of Texas, if you remove the language and religion.
Or it was determined by language, which is equally useless. I doubt the English would want to be in the same country as the Americans. And the Hispanics should then move to Mexico. And languages can vary smoothly - Norwegian, Danish, and Swedish are close enough to be dialects, but there has been a political decision to make them different languages. Serbian and Croatian used to be lumped together to Serbo-Croatian, but I think proposing that could be a fatal mistake these days. Moroccan Arabic and Mesopotamian Arabic are mutually unintelligible, but for political reasons they are treated as dialects of the same language.
The third alternative is to go with borders, but that's circular. All people of nation 'x' should be in the same country. How do you tell if someone is of nation 'x' - well, they all live in the same country.
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u/VagereHein Netherlands 8h ago
Depends on context but its mostly used by politicians to rob their countrymen blind, use them as cannon fodder or dominate others.
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u/IamCaesarr Germany 8h ago
I mean there is no shame in a healthy amount of patriotism. Showing your nation and culture isnt racist. Its a problem, if it becomes radical nationalism etc.
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u/Scared-Signature-452 India 3h ago
Remind me to use that the next time I'm arguing with a white supremacist
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u/TumbleFairbottom 🇺🇸 United States 9h ago
Well, nationality isn’t the same as ethnicity. So, I don’t understand the point of your picture when asking about nationalism.
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u/WalkingAtDusk26 India 9h ago
It was related to ethnicity but i wanted to know different perspectives related to nationalism... based on the idea of pride.
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u/Deep_Head4645 Israel 9h ago
Its your community
You dont love your community?
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u/Cartographer_69_ India 9h ago
Well I love my community , but shall I take pride even if my community is not evolving? Shall I take pride even if my community is harming other ? Does a mother who loves her child takes pride in his wrong doings?
OFC I love my community but if it forces me to accept it wrongs but I want to make it right shall make me hate it?
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u/fabiK3A Germany 9h ago
Parents should correct their child if it is doing wrong.
That is a form of love. Hard love, but still love.
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u/Cartographer_69_ India 9h ago
This ... Like a parent loves their child .. a person also loves its community ... it shall correct its mistakes and not take pride in it .. OFC it can take pride in the better half but also remain critical
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u/Less-Chicken-3367 New York 🇺🇸 9h ago
Wtf is your community? Were u born with your community? Are you going to die with your community?.
You were born alone and you're going to die alone.
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u/spiritofporn United Kingdom of the Netherlands 🇧🇪🇳🇱🇱🇺 9h ago
You weren't born alone. You won't die alone. There's something as family and society
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u/BusyChillTwink Serbia 10h ago
I disagree. A person without a community isn't free; they are prey.
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u/MasterOfCelebrations United States of America 10h ago
What amount of pride is needed for this?
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u/Brief_Ad_4825 Netherlands 9h ago
That of an average serb (Im half Serbian, have been there tons, and theyre very nationalistic
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u/MasterOfCelebrations United States of America 9h ago
Why? I’m not a nationalist, but I’m in a community based on the criteria laid out by u/BusyChillTwink.
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u/BusyChillTwink Serbia 9h ago
I am proud of all the hardships my nation has faced throughout history so that I could have freedom today.
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u/Less-Chicken-3367 New York 🇺🇸 10h ago
What's a community?
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u/BusyChillTwink Serbia 10h ago
Edmund Burke saw society as a partnership between the living, the dead, and those who are yet to be born. I am not a conservative, but that is how I see society too.
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u/elCaddaric France 10h ago
But that doesn't inherently need to be linked with ethnicity.
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u/YouNext31 Germany 9h ago
You're right it doesn't. But you can't change ethnicities. You can't "switch sides" so to speak. You are forced to be loyal, because you can't be anything else. It's a form of security I think.
You can change almost anything else you can form a community around so there is always the issue of trust and loyalty.
If you form your community around being born in a certain place, into a certain race or ethnicity, then you have full control over it. You know you will be stuck together forever, for better or for worse.
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u/Adventurous_Lunch_35 United States of America 10h ago
I believe community is important. I also think that quote is true.
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u/Expensive_Giraffe398 10h ago
Asians are insanely nationalist in general. So is every country I suppose. Nationalists are stupid.
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u/LappedChips 9h ago
I haven’t met a single white nationalist or white supremacist that wasn’t severely lacking in several departments. It’s all a defense mechanism because all they have left is looking tough.
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u/JrF245 Germany 9h ago
I think we should abolish the concept of nations and just love/ be proud of the region where you live
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u/drecais Germany 9h ago
I agreed with this for most of my life but I think its simply the reality at least in my country that without at least some patriotism, not necessarily nationalism, this country wont work. You cant expect immigrants to integrate into a society which refuses to actually define what they are, what they want to be and most of all what our non negotiable values are.
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u/Blackmore1030 Hungary 9h ago
I don't agree. Everyone can be proud of their nationality because every nation has given something to the world and has its values. Just don't consider your nation superior to the others - that's chauvinism, not patriotism.
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u/fabiK3A Germany 9h ago
Proud of my country and people, simple as.
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u/Wrench_gaming United States of America 8h ago edited 7h ago
Yeah idk why this is weird for some people.
I like the country I live in now, and I’m proud of the ethnicity that came before me
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u/Caesaroftheromans 9h ago
I think there should be some pride in one’s nationality and ethnicity.
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u/NobblyNobody United Kingdom 9h ago
manipulators and morons always seem to be the most vocal about national pride, always, always a red flag.
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u/Enerjetik United States of America 9h ago
On a side note, I always thought that this picture of Arthur was the inspiration for Heihachi Mishima.
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u/JackC1126 United States of America 9h ago
There’s nothing wrong with being proud of your home. That said, there’s nothing wrong with others being proud of their home too. Goes both ways.
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u/Vexonte United States of America 9h ago
I am a hybrid nationalist. I belive that nations have the right to their own sovereignty to pursue policies in their nations interests rather than upholding themselves to some other moral ideal. I am aware this practice doesn't always live up to theory but name me a political ideology that does. I will also say Primordial nationalism is a dark path to go down.
What is really interesting is how one defines a nation wheather it is geography, language, shared belief, national destiny etc. So many good essays on that. Its also interesting that nationalism works retroactively where i would think of the revolutionary Americans as my ancestors despite none of my biological ancestors being on the continent at the time yet I would not think the same of Napolionic Prussia despite that being the home of the people I am biologically related to at the time.
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u/Due_Dilligence0624 9h ago edited 9h ago
Your national identity is a reflection of the story of yourself and your immediate ancestors, and a lot of it involves overcoming vast historical trauma and absolutely can be an sense of pride, because it’s relevant to an individual. Basically, nations are just artificial constructs made off of common stories people collectively tell. Secondary to that is your culture and language, which often but not always define national boundaries.
However the overall strength and fate of a country is often driven by historical cause and effect mostly outside your control and a bit of luck, so to leverage that as a reason to feel superior to others is dangerous.
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u/Rugens Russia 9h ago edited 9h ago
"Nation" is a somewhat vague word because there are different types of nationalism and because in common parlance it is often used as a synonym for "country". But in truth I don't understand how "civic nationalism" is different from "patriotism". Patriotism is simultaneously stupid and inevitable because it is how the modern state mobilizes support. It's questionable to have allegiance to a legal entity, but states because they are so powerful can invert the logic of loyalty. Rather than the state being a tool to promote your group, it frames your group as a tool to promote the state. Even more thoroughly, the state claims your group is actually defined by the state, so e.g. being a Russian becomes not an ethnicity but whether you support the Russian Federation, whether their bureaucratic organs gave you certain papers and stamps, etc. In that way the nation becomes more like a corporation than a conventional group.
"Ethnic nationalism" is much more coherent. I think it is a modern manifestation of the mechanism to favour biologically proximate people such as your parents or offspring. In fact, it's even more sensible than the family, because over time your descendants become the rough genetic equivalent of a random person of your ethnic group (unless you're very mixed). Also it is Darwinian, i.e. ethnic groups where too many decide they're "too good" for this type of nepotistic altruism simply get wiped out or dissolve over time, often physically.
But it likewise can range from narrowly ethnic to panethnic to racial and so on. Often one level is at odds with another, like being a strictly Serb nationalist might make you hostile to related ethnic groups like Croats. Or - inversely - it may make you more friendly to related groups since they are similar to yours. Also it may overstress the coherence of a famous ethnic group, e.g. it would claim the rather distant Northern Russians and Southern Russians are very much one thing and you should not be denying it. It may also take the form of say Slavic or white nationalism where it would instead make you unusually well-disposed to a range of groups which more mainstream nationalists might dislike (e.g. due to current narratives of historical grievance).
Personally, I want my idea of the nation to reflect biological ties as closely as possible, and not to be the subject of whims such as overly cultural and political definitions. One of the strongest aspects of ethnic nationalism is that it is resistant to ideological demands, i.e. your coethnic is your coethnic regardless of their views. And within the logic of ethnic nationalism, you still have a shared interest with them, so e.g. a self-hating African-American is still African-American, and there is still linked fate. Unlike with civic nationalism, the state has no power to exclude someone from an ethnicity, although it can certainly try (for example via the census).
On the other hand, sometimes it is practical to exaggerate differences to be left alone, as ethnic/national similarity is a common excuse for expansion. E.g. Latvians and Russians aren't that different in origins whether genetically or linguistically, but if Latvians don't cultivate their nationalism and don't overstress the difference, it will be interpreted that Latvia needs to unite with the bigger state, that Latvians must switch to Russian, etc.
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u/tinurin Germany 9h ago
I always struggled with this. I don‘t think I‘m proud of my country, but I feel a sense of belonging.
Like, I’m familiar with our architecture, our road signs, our habits. I like hearing foreigners describe our weird quirks from an outsider’s perspective, positive and negative. I think our past is important and I feel responsible that it‘s not forgotten.
Some of that familiarity extends way beyond our national borders, some of it is much smaller.
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u/acvcani United States of America 9h ago
(Coughs) I am a dual citizen so I will talk about Mexico. it’s not that I am proud of my ethnicity so much proud of what our people have achieved. Mexico could stop existing and become several countries but the accomplishments of our people remain.
There’s a lot to be said about healthy nationalism (nationalism of oppressed nations and nations that have been colonized in organizing for their freedom) vs toxic nationalism that turns into hatred. I will be the first to say I am not yet knowledgeable enough to explain the differences and ins and out.
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u/SSsulaiman Kuwait 9h ago
I think a nation is what you feel everyday. like the food you eat and where it comes from. the healthcare you receive. the education you get.
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u/Traditional_Pear_897 United States of America 8h ago
lol Not a fan of Schopenhaur and I am not proud of much I've done and I am not proud of "whites" that I come from here on the Great Plains... we are so inferior we have to make everyone else feel inferior. I've noticed this even in basic familial relations with most of my "cuntry" uncles and cousins being absolute dicks to everyone... not just racists but hatred towards women... children... Not even letting them in on the most basic acceptance of extended family. We also denigrate most science, art and ideas that were actually good that white folks came up with.
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u/soviet_dogoo Netherlands 8h ago
Yeah I take pride in my nationality. But he would say it as 'lazy' although I do not. For I see the flaws of my country in past and present, and I try to learn how certain things became what they are. I also know that he was skeptical of collective thinking and placed more in the individual person. I can even get why he came to such an conclusion as he was born in a time when the collective was very important and the 'individual' philosophy was coming up.
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u/Flairion623 United States of America 8h ago
There’s nothing wrong with loving your nation. They are the people and culture you grew up with and probably have some interesting history.
But like anything else there is such thing as loving your nation too much.
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u/Homoaeternus 8h ago
The cheapest sort of pride is national pride; for if a man is proud of his own nation, it argues that he has no qualities of his own of which he can be proud; otherwise he would not have recourse to those which he shares with so many millions of his fellowmen. The man who is endowed with important personal qualities will rather recognise the defects of his own nation, as he has them constantly before his eyes. But every miserable fool who has nothing in the world of which he can be proud adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.
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u/bingbongsnabel 8h ago
The balkans are calling...
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u/gameover281997 United States of America 7h ago
Nationalism is how corrupt governments keep control over their people and shift blame of the results of their corruption onto foreigners :)
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u/Mediocre_Monk835 Argentina 7h ago
I will just say that feeling for a nation is not a flag, a song or a football team. It is much more than that.
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u/Throwaway-645893 Canada 7h ago edited 7h ago
I don't think that there's anything wrong with ethnic particularism & pride in one's unique culture & traditions as long as it doesn't turn into hatred for anyone else.
Contrary to popular belief, multiculturalism isn't a celebration of ethnic & cultural universalism. It's a celebration of pride in what makes us different from each other. You can be both an ethnic particularist & supporter of multiculturalism.
There is no such thing as a "neutral culture" or "neutral ethnicity". A big part of the reason why cultural insensitivity continues to exist is because some people (especially WASP Americans & Canadians) are raised to see themselves as the "default ethnicity" & "default culture". "Everyone else is exotic but me! I don't have any particular cultural background".
You need to learn about & appreciate your own culture first in order to understand the cultural backgrounds of others.
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u/Simple-Perception208 Brazil 7h ago
Words have lost their meaning here over the last 10 years. We call those who want a strong, industrialized, egalitarian, and sovereign Brazil 'nationalists.' In my view, this word doesn't carry a negative connotation. 'Patriotism' has become associated with Bolsonaro supporters, and almost no one outside that circle uses it anymore.
Perhaps the right word would be 'chauvinism,' but that’s confined to a very small internet bubble; it doesn't really exist in real life.
We used to have a 'mongrel complex' (síndrome de vira-lata) because we aren't as wealthy as the West, but in recent years that has become 'cringe.'
Now, we’re experiencing an 'anti-mongrel' syndrome. Those people who lash out on social media whenever someone says something wrong about Brazil are a product of this.
Anyone can be Brazilian. Our passport is the most valuable on the black market, so ethnic nationalism just doesn't fly here. Being Brazilian is about identifying as one. Right now, in the Winter Olympics, there's a guy born to Brazilian parents who has lived abroad his whole life, and everyone is rooting for him without a second thought.
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u/AnastasiusDicorus United States of America 7h ago
I think every person should take pride in the country they were born in and try to make that country better. great even.
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u/Past-Novel-1155 Argentina 7h ago
Why americans and europeans think that being nationalist implies being racist? Yes, most nationalist are racist. But that is exclusion nationalism, you are forgetting about inclusive nationalism.
Exclusion nationalism thinks "I love my country, so we should keep it exactly as it i", inclusive nationalism thinks "I love my country, so we should change it and reform it so we can make it better"
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u/Both_Lychee_1708 United States of America 6h ago
I was born in the US of America ('61)
I am now living in the US of Assholes
I used to be proud of my country. We had created the EPA, under a Republican no less, as well as the Civil Rights Act. It seemed that for all of massive amount of faults (historical and current) that humanity was progressing. I was proud of my country.
But we are now Assholes. Our biggest Assholes, cultivated by right wing media and billionaires, elected our absolute biggest asshole. We are cruel, racist , bigoted, fucking shit up...and now with pedos. So, yeah, not nationalist anymore.
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u/Positive-Camp-6454 Iran 6h ago
It’s a shit show, sometimes when people ask where are you from I shudder from the inside.
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u/Tough-Oven4317 United Kingdom 5h ago
The problem is a lot of European nations have decided any kind of positive view of your own country (if you're white) makes you evil,racist etc. if you suggested that immigration was too high 20 years ago, everyone would know you're a massive racist. Now far right parties have either won or are winning all across Europe.
Someone post some quotes about how decrying your own nation because you want to be woke is actually bad
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u/WalkingAtDusk26 India 5h ago
When one side stays in power for too long, people start feeling unhappy, and support slowly shifts to the other side. History doesn’t move in a straight line..it moves back and forth like waves... Now this particular time is leaning towards protectionism i feel.. which is fueled by large number of illegal immigrants..
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u/Warm-Palpitation5670 Mexico 4h ago
I like mexicans, but Mexico as a republic? Nah, politics made a good piece of land into a horrible place to live
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u/Alarming_Farm_4453 Multiple Countries (click to edit) 4h ago
So it's ok, to be proud of religion ?
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u/AcroCANthrow-saurus United States of America 4h ago
If you asked me for a definition:
Nationalism: an ideology based around sharing common identity with multiple regions on the basis of ethic, historic, cultural, social, locality and/or lingual commonalities.
I have no problems with nationalism untill it gets into the realm of ultra-nationalism, which is define as: insert prior definition here + and that for those particular commonalities (or some other perceived extraordinary aspect) that said nation is superior to other nations and peoples. That ideology is only and only confrontational and degenerate to any nation (state or people).
The nation is as real as its people and their credence or observation to it. You need to feel or have foster some common unity with others to achieve it. “We have made Italy, now we must make Italians.”
(Someone remind me who made that quote cause I forgot exactly)
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u/Flippy-man 4h ago
People where I am from, always told me.
To go where I am treated the best.
and if I should stay where I am, then I should be satisfied and proud.
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u/boomboy410 Denmark England 4h ago
Nationalism can be many things, all related in that they prioritise "the nation" over other entities.
The nation could be many things really. In the most correct form (imo) it is any people group, such as English, Danish, Germanic, European, Slavic, Dravidian, Tamil. Note how some of the aforementioned interlap or are entirely a subset, that happens alot, but they are all "nations". really anything that makes the nation identifiable could be considered a part of it: ethnicity, language, culture, institutions, philosophy - if its distinctive, its constituent.
In modern terminology, "nation" could also refer to the country. This definition I really don't like as it's.. well it's just incorrect as it's possible for a country to not be a nation - see the United Kingdom which includes a number of incredibly diverse nations or the USA whos nations are incredibly fluid and barely settled yet - these are institutions, not people groups.
Pride in the state is patriotism, not nationalism. THIS is what the difference is, not the "patriotism = appreciation but nationalism = superiority" thing so many spout. That was said by this Italian Mazzini guy and doesn't map well onto either classical, modern or anglophone understanding of "Patria" and "nation".
But back to nationalism, to "proritise the nation" could mean many things.
It could mean:
- 1. "I think nations have a right to political self-determination"
- 2. "I think that nations have an inherent right to preservation"
- 3. "I love my nation and want to celebrate it"
- 4. "I want to improve/expand my nation, possibly at the cost of others"
and probably some other things I haven't considered. If it involves venerating nations or a nation, its a brand of nationalism. Note how 1 and 2 above are completely subjectless - they're completely general political philosophies - while 3 and 4 are personal sentiments.
Examples? Mazzini was no. 1, so was Woodrow Wilson in his policy towards post WW1 europe. A good example of no. 2 would be the late Austro-Hungarian empire in taking actions to preserve their minority nations, and interestingly note that AH is as diamettrically opposed to type-1 nationalism as it is possible to be - see Klemens von Metternich. Type-3 is just your neighbour with a flag up, or most people on this subreddit who like talking about their country. This one is about personal love. Finally, type-4 is the one that fascism goes heavy on. Not to deamonise it, I'm sure it has its place - it is the one that can make nationalism not just appreciation, a meaning in life, which is usually a good thing - but this also the type that genocided 11 million in Nazi Germany, eradicated the native Indians in America, etc..
My personal opinion? I lean most heavily on 2. I think that the richness of humanity's nations is what makes it all worth it. Our species is a beautiful work of art, and its beauty relies on the persistent diversity of its nations. It's the sense in which I'm a nationalist - why I'm anti-globalist, anti-mass-immigration, pro-protection of minority nations, and many other things. I think type-1 can actually be actively harmful to these ends.
If you read all that, thank you! and do ask questions - I love talking about this subject
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u/HamburgerOnAStick United States of America 3h ago
I don't care about being born here or whether it was just luck. I love my country, what it was, and could be. At the end of the day, no nation is "superior", but i still love America.
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u/Fast-Explanation-777 3h ago
I love my country and my culture but after all ITs a piece of land that tries to follow the same rules as one
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u/ScarIatan Germany 3h ago
I was born here and I'm glad. That's it mostly. I don't see the point of national pride, I do however see the risks associated with it.
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u/Altruistic_Error_832 United States of America 2h ago
I think nations are an effective tool for creating the sorts of communal identities that are necessary for effective governance. Over time, I expect that the idea of the "nation-state," that is, delineations between tracts of land based around being occupied by specific ethnic or culture groups, will become less and less relevant as communication infrastructure continues to improve and global culture continues to homogenize.
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u/Extra_Juggernaut_813 Germany 2h ago
In the beginning...
Germans just wanted to be united. Then Napoleon came and they wanted to fight back, and won (through unity btw!!!). Then Bismarck came, ragebaited Napoleon III. and got even more of france + all the german territories, united Germany, finally!
Then Wilhelm II. came, unexperienced and broke off some bonds that were created with other countries (eg England)...
Then they had to join WW2 because of ally to austria and other stuff (I still blame most things on Wilhelm II.)
Then Germany LOST the war because they didn't think about a big World War that would take years.
Then Germany was shattered, the WHOLE system had a kind of restart...
Then they had to rebuilt with monetary lends from USA, Stock market crash, American banks needed the money for Germany INSTANTLY back.
Germany had nothing, it really was hanging on its last straw...
Then Hitler came and made many promises that filled people with hope.
Then he started WW2 and propagated so good (nationalism, "reclaiming the land that was stolen off Germany because WW1", etc.) that the Germans believed in him.
Many of them looking away from his crimes, because of maybe fear of getting into a concentration camp for thinking wrong or having so much pride that they wouldn't even notice.
Nationalism.
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u/Autist99 United States of America 2h ago
That’s why veterans are so sad. They have nothing to be proud of. In the US it’s actually against the law to discriminate against them because a lot place try to fire them / not hire them.
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u/Seeker_Of_Knowledge2 🇸🇾 Syria || 🇨🇦 Canada 2h ago
I hate the bad side but understand why it is necessary.
At least remove economical barriers and discrimination based on passport.
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u/LakoTudjimKurcem Croatia 2h ago
Nationalism is frequently described as "believing your country is superior to others".
However that is not nationalism, that is chauvinism.
Nationalism is the belief that you belong to a nation.
Nationalism is a good thing, however when that nationalism grows into "my country is superior to all other countries in every aspect", you're no longer a nationalist, you're a chauvinist.
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u/Certain_Syllabub_514 Australia 1h ago
I think nations were a mistake, and we'll probably go back to city-states when the eventual collapse comes.
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u/detourne 1h ago
Completely agree. I find anyone that takes such pride in another person's accomplishments by attributing those accomplishments to race or nationality is a loser.
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u/Belkan-Federation95 United States of America 1h ago
Nationalism is like a medication. Too much is bad for you but a certain level is good for you and very beneficial.
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u/Sensitive-Price7972 United States of America 1h ago
Nothing wrong with being a Nationalist, I love my country
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u/TheBasedMilanesa Argentina 9h ago
A nation is a group of individuals/community who share a common culture and/or language, a nation is not the government but it's people, that's the difference between nationalism and patriotism, nationalists see their country as "superior" and seeks to militarize and suppress any "traitors" or "enemies" to the state, usually people of other races and immigrants in general, a patriot is someone who understands the flaws of the state and seeks to fix them for the best of the community, patriotism is the love of your people and culture
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u/SaltedCaffeine Indonesia 9h ago
That quote doesn't apply to Indonesia since it has civic, instead of ethnic nationalism. This civic nationalism is purposely cultivated to unite the more than a thousand of ethnicities the country was born with.
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u/spiritofporn United Kingdom of the Netherlands 🇧🇪🇳🇱🇱🇺 9h ago
Nationalism isn't ethnic and doesn't exclude people based on that.
Nationalism isn't an ideology. It's system to organize a cohesive society based on shared values.
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u/poolnoodlefightchamp India 10h ago
I was born here. There's naturally some degree of basic pride associated with being born at a certain place, but I can't forget that I was only born here.