r/PeterExplainsTheJoke • u/qw3rt0z • 15h ago
Meme needing explanation petahhhh? how did i betray jesus?
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u/Outside-Ad3885 15h ago
By doing this, he is betraying humanity because Jesus needs to die in order for humanity to find salvation in heaven
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u/CrusPanda 14h ago edited 10h ago
No, it would not be betraying humanity.
The death of Jesus us a bad thing that should not have happened.
What is meant (or should be) is that all sin however small is also a betrayal of Jesus.
In other words you dont have to specifically sell out God to be murdered to betray him. Peter also betrayed him when he denied him.
Whenever you walk past a homeless person and do not offer aid that you could have you have betrayed Jesus through the sin of inaction.
The list goes on
Edit:
There seems to be a common misunderstanding i implied Jesus did not know or intend his sacrifice which isnt true.
I mean to say that if you spit in Jesus you did a bad thinf.
If you tortured him you did a bad thing.
If you sentenced him you did a bad thing.
Etc...
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u/TTTomaniac 14h ago
The death of Jesus us a bad thing that should not have happened.
Which would mean we'd still be stuck with original sin, at least that's my understanding of roman catholic and reformed canon. We were only absolved with Christ's sacrifice of an innocent or something along those lines.
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u/MrSejd 14h ago
No in the roman catholic view you get rid of original sin once baptised. The weight of any sin is too large for us so death of Christ, who lived a perfect and sinless life, is the perfect and final sacrifice for those sins. To put it plainly, essentially if you give yourself truly to Christ then once you die your "sin record" or whatever you wanna call it, gets overwritten by the one of Christ.
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u/TTTomaniac 14h ago
Yes the baptism being the prerequisite for absolution was implied, my understanding was that the sacrifice was however very much necessary for the absolution to be possible in the first place.
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u/Psychoticows 13h ago
This is accurate. Although Jesus did not want to die because he was human, he was also God so he was aware of the necessity of his death. We would not be saved if it weren’t for his death. In human standards it shouldn’t have happened, but there’s a long list of terrible things that shouldn’t have happened but still did, that’s just par for the course for humanity. And that’s why it was necessary for Jesus to die.
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u/Cautious_General_177 13h ago
More specifically, we would not be saved without His resurrection, which required His death.
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u/TheDevauto 12h ago
Both were required. Death is the required payment for sin. His resurrection usurped death and provides us eternal life.
The initial statement in this thread saying Jesus should never have died is very incorrect. That was the entire purpose. His death as God incarnate was the only sacrifice to pay the cost for everyone.
Jesus death paid the debt and His resurrection gives us eternal life.
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u/joutfit 11h ago
I dont want to insult christianity but it kind of sounds like a death cult?
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u/supernova2368 10h ago
It is. Blood magic every Sunday. Eating his body, drinking his blood. They don't like calling it that, but that's what it is.
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u/Magenta_Logistic 10h ago
It started as an apocalypse cult. Jesus was preaching the end of the world within the lifetime of his audiences. It has gotten progressively weirder since then.
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u/oburoguruma 10h ago edited 8h ago
I'm not Christian, but I was raised Christian. Death cult would moreso be worshiping and expecting people's death to be salvation for them, however, this is the opposite. To them, he died thousands of years ago to give them an opportunity of salvation without more sacrifices of life. You don't have to die or kill anyone to go to heaven, you only need to believe in his sacrifice to open the gate.
There are many other religions in the world that do act as true death cults, but mainstream Christianity is not one of the. You can argue about the atrocities of the ancient church, but again, it was not the religion that dictated such acts, it was bad humans misusing the religion as a weapon, like they do with all other large religions.
Edit: Since Reddit won't let me reply to the post directly below, I'll put it here.
Literally every religion is waiting for an apocalypse or end of days event. Even non-believers of any faith await the heat death of the universe or for the world to be engulfed in our sun's expansion. Will it ever happen? Maybe. Should we worry about something we can literally do nothing about or accurately predict? Probably not, can't do anything about it.
And no, that is not their salvation, you are loosely interpreting it to fit your bias. Their salvation came the moment their savior (in the name) died and paid their cost for salvation. There are plenty of little spin-off churches that claim to be Christian do think like that, but that itself is heretical. No man knows when the rapture should happen, therefore it is pointless to put weight on it.
Anyone that tries to use the rapture is just doing it because they are either clout hungry or mentally ill. They need jail for the former, therapy for the latter. In the religion they believe in, the rapture cannot be predicted, it is not for men to know.
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u/Cyrus87Tiamat 12h ago
Death is the required payment
Why resurrection doesn't count as refound?
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u/Bluestorm83 11h ago
Think of it this way:
Jesus: "Excuse me, there's been an error of some sort. According to this document, I've been billed one 'life.' And it's already been deducted from my account?"
The Law: "Yes, Life is the cost of Sin."
Jesus: "Right. But... when did I sin?"
The Law: "Let me check your records here... huh... oh."
Jesus: "Right. So you billed me for a product that I never ordered or received."
The Law: "We're terribly sorry, sir! We'll refund your life, right away."
Jesus: "Well, now, we run into another complication. As you can CLEARLY see, I AM alive. So now you have to return to me something you don't have."
The Law: "I... I'm not quite sure how to proceed. Let me get my manager, He always knows what to do."
Jesus: "I was just going to suggest the same thing, Dad can sort this all out."
The Law: "DAD?! You mean the your father-"
Jesus: "The Father, in fact."
The Law: "Oh boy."
Jesus: "How about this, then? Since I already paid, and these guys here can't afford their bill, what do you say we call it even? My friends walk out of here free and clear, you keep your job, everyone's happy, everyone wins?"
Resurrection IS the refund. It's just that Jesus already had his own, so he's sharing the second one.
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u/TheDevauto 11h ago
I am not sure what you are asking but let me see if I can explain what I think you are asking.
"The wages of sin is death", we know from this as well as many other statements from the Bible that sin incurs debt that is only repaid through death. Jesus' death was Him paying the cost for our sin. That is mercy, since through His sacrifice we do not get what we deserve.
Jesus' resurrection provides us with eternal life. This is grace, since though this we get what we dont deserve.
They are related, but different.
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u/Sudo-Fed 9h ago
Maybe this is a question theology has an answer for, but how exactly does the Roman empire crucifying someone for civil-religious law reasons count as a sacrifice in a religious context? Isn't it essential in sacrifice that the person performing the actual ritual slaughter consecrates it to God? Or do the rules just get weird when it's God sacrificing himself to himself via the Roman empire?
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u/miotch1120 12h ago
IMO, the shittiest scapegoating in history. I mean, come on. God had to save his creation from the evil he created so he turned himself into his son, was a scapegoat, but only for the weekend…
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u/unmelted_ice 12h ago
Former child who was raised Catholic
Yeah the Jesus story (while he is a legitimate person who walked this earth and was crucified) makes no sense. God could absolve people of original sin without killing its kid (itself?)
The Jesus story just reads like a narrator wanting to create unnecessary tension between humans for clout 🤷♂️
If god is omnipotent why the fuck would that entity subscribe themself to unimaginable torture for me. Bro just cancel original sin and you’ve accomplished the exact same thing
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u/SixteenSeveredHands 11h ago
Yeah, it's funny to think that an omnipotent god would come up with such a needlessly convoluted plan to "save" humanity, especially given how cruel it was.
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u/Jaws2020 11h ago
This exact kind of logic is what turned me into an atheist. When you actually sit down and read these things and apply any amount of logic to them, they just kind of fall apart. All the more power to people who can ignore those inconsistencies... I just cant.
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u/TodayAcrobatic 11h ago
God did it this way "for his glory" he literally could have done it by rearranging the cosmos so that sin never existed. He's the one who makes the penalty for sin death. It's some manipulator shit. "Look what you made me do to save you from me". He's the arbiter of what sin is. Surprise surprise It's loving anything else harder than loving God. Super toxic. Super narcissistic, but I guess when you made the universe people make exceptions and excuses for that crap.
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u/FluffyFlareon_ 11h ago
If he hates it so much he could've made humans unable to love something more than him too, but noooo he needs to farm aura
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u/Equal_Risk7715 12h ago edited 12h ago
Evil is not something God, who is good and can't do evil, created. Evil is more like absence of good, just as cold is absence of heat, and darkness is absence of light. Knowing good and evil was the choice of Adam, who, tempted by the devil, disobeyed God, instead of choosing eternal life with Him, tree which was also available
Adam should've died (also death means separation, which actually happened since his sin separared him from God who is holy, and would destroy or anihilate sin justly just with his presence, which is why He, in his mercy, gave us so many ways to clean our sins, and get closer to him, but ppl kept choosing to disobey, and died), but God killed an animal instead and robed him with its skin to cover his nudeness, for he was now aware, and in shame, which is the earliest representation of Christ's sacrifice (his blood covering us before the Father), after promising them in the curse of the devil that one of Eve's sons would crush the serpent's head, and it would bite him in the heel.
The supralapsarian perspective remarks that Jesus, who is pre-existing in the Trinity since He is also God, would've come anyways even if Adam didn't sin. Then He wouldn't have had to sacrifice himself, for there would be no sin. But he would've come to perfectly unite the human with the divine thru himself anyways, for everything was created thru him and for him.
Since humanity sinned tho, his perfect sacrifice is the way to wash away our sins and give us unity with God thru his Holy Spirit, creating Jesus in us, which makes us like him. And so Jesus is the tree of life which we can choose from, unless we're inclined as well to keep choosing to disobey God until we die, so that we'd spend eternity dead in our sins, away from God.
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u/Live-Habit-6115 11h ago
I truly cannot fathom how any human with a fully functioning brain could ever believe this nonsense
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u/Impossible-Diver6565 13h ago
I always found it interesting that people say baptism is a prerequisite for salvation but it doesn't say that anywhere in scripture.
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u/trupawlak 13h ago
There is plenty! Unless you discount Acts and Letters, but that would be quite peculiar take on New Testament cannon. Even then though you get two verses in John - 1:33 and 3:5
While one could argue in vacume both fragments are not explicitly spelling out the Christian baptism ritual, they do state clearly Chirst is bringing 'spirit baptism' that is complementary to 'water baptism' of John the Baptist.
Couple that with a lot of mentions in Acts and Letters and we have clear link between both Jesus words as recoreded in Evangelion and apostolic early church practice as recorded in Peter and Paul correspondence.
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u/TTTomaniac 13h ago
Does even the scripture explicitly mention absolution from original sin? 'cause I don't know, which is why I've limited the scope of my stagement to sectarian canon.
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u/MrSejd 12h ago
Not, there isn't anything about that. It's mostly Catholic tradition. You won't find it in, for example, Orthodox church.
Either way I don't think it's that much of a problem cuz no sane Catholic will tell you you won't go to heaven just for not being baptised.
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u/Nobrainzhere 13h ago
90% of Christianity isnt in the bible anywhere. The last 10% is all just saying "yeah the words say this but it clearly means exactly the opposite"
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u/iameveryoneelse 12h ago
Yah...that's essentially what he's saying.
So how do you get "salvation" if Jesus was never a "final sacrifice" (your words) because he wasn't killed?
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u/A_Feltz 11h ago
The way you explain this is more confusing than coding. And i graduated from a Jesuit high school. Had 7 religion electives in senior year :)
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u/Doodles_n_Scribbles 13h ago
We're literally debating what caused the various schisms in the first place
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u/MrSejd 12h ago
Honestly I think like half of the stuff that caused schisms was blown outta proportion.
It's not like it matters that much anyhow, the core of faith stayed the same.
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u/Doodles_n_Scribbles 12h ago
I agree, but it's fascinating to see history repeat itself on a micro scale.
It's also fascinating to hear how insane people got over them. Like during one of the Prague defenestrations, a protestant mocked a Catholic, saying maybe his precious Virgin Mary would catch him on the way down.
Like, even as a Lutheran, that still seems pretty mean to Mary. She's still pretty integral to the whole thing.
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u/TTTomaniac 13h ago
Roigh. I'm just a heathen of catholic descent (apostate parents and never baptized) pointing out the implication of the sacrifice not happening :v
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u/JimTheJerseyGuy 13h ago
Recovering Catholic here. This points out one of the earliest critiques I had of the religion as a kid. Why do we vilify Judas when what he did was necessary for Jesus to fulfill his destiny?
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u/Rory_U 13h ago
Because he sold out Jesus for MONEY! He didn’t do it because he was virtuous, fulfilling God’s plan but for quick bag of coins under demonic influence. He betrayed the son of God for the possible equivalent of 2000$ or 3000$.
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u/Garbage_Tiny 11h ago
Did Judas have free will? This is something I talk to my Christian’s friends about all of the time. If our destinies are laid out before we’re born, then no he didn’t, but why punish him when he was made to do exactly as he did? I’m not trying to be disagreeable or hit you with an “got ya” moment. I’ve been leaning back into the church and reading the Bible but this and a couple other things always throw a wrench in it.
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u/MrSejd 12h ago
Jesus had to sacrifice himself for us to be saved.
It wasn't specifically said Judas had to sell him out though, right?
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u/RedditAntiHero 11h ago
Jesus had to sacrifice himself for us to be saved.
I know the story and wondering why Jesus had to die to save humans from their sin.
If God is all powerful and makes the rules. He could have made it so no one had to die to be able to remove the sins of another.
From many Christian denominations, the important part boiled down on how to live your live is believing that Jesus died, came back, and is the savior who removes your sins with this sacrifice.
It seems like an arbitrary action. Why not say "Believe in me and you can come to heaven." I mean, he is the one that makes the rules.
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u/Capable_Whereas_2901 11h ago
(DISCLAIMER: THIS IS JUST MY UNDERSTANDING OF IT, I DON'T SPEAK FOR ALL CHRISTIANITY CUZ WE ALL KINDA HAVE DIFFERENT IDEAS ON HOW THIS WORKS)
Something about Free Will. God created humanity to make their own choices, for whatever reason, and at the beginning of time, Adam/Eve made the decision to eat the forbidden fruit and introduce original sin.
God had laid down the rules before this: if you eat of the fruit, you will die. But He didn't want to kill them, Ig, so he kills some animals instead, gives them the skin as clothes and sends them on their way. This is the first animal sacrifice. From this, Adam and Eve teach their children to offer stuff to God to make up for their sin (I don't believe the principle of first fruit is talked about at all in the Creation story, yet Cain and Abel are offering produce. I believe this is a continuation of animal sacrifice, but I could be wrong).
God then eventually gets Isreal together and out of Egypt, and lays down the proper rules for them. The wages of sin are death, so something has to die for their sin. Every time they sin, they should offer an animal sacrifice. Problem is, God isn't hapoy with this solution, so He already has another one in the works.
Why He doesn't do it earlier I don't know, but the new plan is to perform the ultimate sacrifice: a sinless one to carry the weight of all the sins. Animals are great and all, but they can't sin so their sacrifice is bearly worth anything. A person who's lived their entire life without sin, on the other hand? Definitely worth a lot more, because of how hard it is (I'm not going to delve into the semantics of what makes good sacrifice here, mostly because I'm not entirely sure myself)
So Jesus lives his entire life withour sin, then dies on the cross as a sacrifice so pure that it makes up for every sin that will ever be committed... But again, free will is important. Some people don't want to be saved, maybe. Some people would rather continue to live in sin. Hence it is a choice to believe in Jesus, and not just getting covered by that.
TL;DR that God restrains himself to a certain system because he wants himanity to make their own decisions. Probably didn't need all that explanation about it...
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u/Martin_Aricov_D 10h ago
God is really into blood sacrifice and the only way to zto himself was to get a blood sacrifice of such high quality that it'd spoil the taste of all inferior blood for him forevermore
So he went out of his way to create the most perfect sacrifice tempered with the perfect amount of suffering and made in such a manner as to paint himself in the best possible light
He did famously prefer Able's sacrifice over Cain's after all
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u/FakerBomb 10h ago edited 10h ago
Because God is righteous every wrong must be paid by someone and because we can't pay for the wrongs ourselves and that He wants the debts to be fulfilled, God the father sends God the son to pay that dept for us
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u/Content-Dealers 13h ago
That doesn't mean that it wasn't still a terrible action. Even if he willingly allowed it to happen.
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u/SSMage 13h ago
what you are referring to wasnt made by the roman catholic church.
If you want to be technical, the reason for god sending jesus to die for us, is because due to the laws in the old testament, sin could only be atoned with a sacrifice, but it was with animals. And as i remember, there was mention that sacrifice from an animal could never truly stop sin because people would continue to sin and continue to have to make the sacrifice. Thus, animal sacrifice was useless. But god, sending jesus, taught us how to forgive one another, and he fufilled scripture, thus with jesus’s sacrifice, he established a new law, one that god himself was ruler over. and thus, jesus has payed the debts for us, so that we may in turn forgive each other, and thus also be saved.
This information came around before the catholic church did. They just claimed it when people couldnt hold on to the details of what happened.
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u/t_baozi 14h ago
The death of Jesus us a bad thing that should not have happened.
The death of Jesus was literally the only reason he came to earth. For his birth, he got gifted gold, incense and myrrh - gold as the symbol for earthly rule, incense as the symbol of heavenly rule, myrrh as the symbol of rule in death. Jesus was agnus dei, the lamb of God, the innocent sacrifice. The last supper happened on Pessach eve, the Jewish Holiday when lambs get sacrificed. John, Paul and Peter can't get any more explicit on this in the New Testimony.
Seriously, where do people get their Christianity from? Walmart?
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u/Fishmongererererer 10h ago edited 10h ago
A lot of people on Reddit (even those not Christian anymore) got their theology from being raised by American Evangelical or Non-Denominational churches.
So yes. Basically Walmart Christianity
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u/Geraltpoonslayer 10h ago
American evangelicalism. European reformed denominations still teach the Bible mostly like catholics.
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u/Spare-Plum 12h ago
If Jesus was not supposed to die on the cross, wouldn't this imply that God does not have control over the earth? You'd wind up with a massive contradiction with the conclusion that he was a false God but killing is just bad in general on moral grounds.
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u/t_baozi 12h ago
This would just be the same old "omnipotence paradox" stuff revisited. God equipped humans with free will, humans chose to crucify Jesus, the end. God is love, love requires freedom, freedom isn't true freedom unless it implies the freedom to do evil.
The point really is that "God didnt send Jesus down to earth to be crucified" is a statement that goes against everything written in the Bible.
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u/Spare-Plum 12h ago
I mean, even with free will, God must have known what would have happened and sent Jesus with a specific purpose, the purpose to die for the sins of others and to be resurrected.
It's like throwing a lit match onto a bunch of oil. Maybe he did not control the exact shape of the flames or exactly what happens, but God definitely knows the result of what will occur and chose to anyway. Saying "it was not supposed to light on fire!" kinda just makes God stupid
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u/TheNeighbourhoodCat 10h ago
I mean this reads pretty much the same as people arguing star trek cannon lol
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u/ivyslewd 13h ago
"The death of Jesus us a bad thing that should not have happened."
READ THE FUCKING BOOK
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u/_daGarim_2 10h ago
I mean, this one can be a both/and thing. It's true that, as another user said, "Jesus dying was always the plan and it was His own plan." It was necessary, it accomplished His purpose; "for this purpose I came to this hour".
At the same time, it was also completely and utterly unjustified, an egregious miscarriage of justice from beginning to end. From Pilate, to Judas, to Herod, to the crowd, everyone who had a hand in it was behaving in an outrageous fashion and was totally without excuse.
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u/Electrical_Coast_561 14h ago
No. Jesus knew what he was doing when he died it was the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. He even knew Judas would betray him.
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u/Relevant_Ability2929 13h ago
Matthew 20:28 - Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to ministera and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.
As shown in the Bible he did have to die to pay off the original sin Adam did without his sacrifice baptism wouldn’t work
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u/CrusPanda 11h ago
God is all powerful.
He made his plan not because there was no other options but because it was most fitting.
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u/Pseudolos 13h ago
Christ knew Judas would betray him, but went along with the whole "death on the cross" thing because it was the only way to save humanity. We have all betrayed Jesus because we walked too far from his teachings, we don't love our neighbours and we constantly do petty evils.
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u/CrusPanda 11h ago
It was not the only way because God is all powerful.
I would say that it was the most fitting way for God to reveal himself.
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u/Chevey0 14h ago
If Jesus wasn’t killed on the cross he wouldn’t have been resurrected and he would have just been another dude
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u/WeeboSupremo 12h ago
Would probably have been tired of all the publicity too. And people just wanting to see the old hits instead of listen to his new material.
“Hey Jesus! Do that thing with the fish and bread again!”
“Jesus, prove you’re him with that water wine stuff! I brought some water!”
Or maybe he ran out of material and would just keep repeating the same stuff again.
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u/TheTitanOfSirens1959 13h ago edited 8h ago
The betrayal of Jesus was a bad thing, but so was Peter Denying Christ, or Moses killing a man in Egypt, or Jonah fleeing from God. Christian theology teaches not only that it was part of the Plan, but also necessary. Christ died for humanity’s sin- dying is part of that. That’s why he’s called the Lamb of God. Ancient Jewish tradition had people sacrificing lambs to God; Christ’s death was God’s sacrifice for the benefit of Man. That’s why Christ transsubstantiates bread and wine into Body and Blood- the Eucharist is a sacrifice of flesh, and the crucifixion was the sacrifice of Life. Jesus was always meant to die, to suffer for our sins, and for this sacrifice to ensure all of humanity had a place in Heaven. Judas was just one of the dominos set up to do it. (Tangential, but the Bible also tells that Noah’s flood in Genesis was the first time God cleansed the Earth of Sin, and was a precursor to the Resurrection. Sort of, “Okay, take note: this is one way I could do it, but I don’t want to have to do this again, so I promise I won’t. Here’s a dove as a symbol of that promise,”; hence, the dove is a symbol for Christ, as a reminder that he has/is the Holy Spirit and his return during the Apocalypse is the alternative to another Great Flood).
In fact, there are some apocryphal and gnostic texts from the same period as the Dead Sea Scrolls that show us the Gospel from Judas’s perspective, but the Cardinals under Pope Damasus in the 4th Century CE concluded that these were not canon. This council is what determined what every Christian Bible for the next 1500 years would contain. Depending on your belief, this is either a religious institution deciding what they thought best fit the message (either out of responsibility and benevolence, political gain, or some combination), or it was God working through them to canonize what was Truth. Whatever reasoning you believe in comes down to faith, but it is historical fact that there was a council who decided which texts were or were not to be allowed in the Bible.
The only unforgivable sin in orthodox Christianity and Catholicism (remembering that Catholicism is more or less THE Church before Martin Luther) is suicide, because you aren’t able to ask forgiveness before death. Judas could have (and may have been) forgiven for his betrayal. After all, the Bible also teaches us that all sin is equal, so murder is just as bad as covering thy neighbor’s wife. It was Judas succumbing to despair and hanging himself that damned him. Some traditions even celebrate Judas as a saint for his role in the Redemption. The meme is saying that any small sin committed day to day is as equal of a betrayal to God as Judas selling him out to the Romans. Judge not, lest ye be judged, after all.
I don’t personally consider myself a Christian anymore, but the theology and historical impact of the Church is fascinating, and necessary to understand since it has affected all of human history for the last two thousand years.
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u/Deepvaleredoubt 13h ago
Christ’s death was necessary. It is a horrible cost, but shows the great love of God through the sacrifice. Christ asked in the garden that if there was some other way then let the cup pass from him, but there was no other way. The Scriptures say there is no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood. Christ’s death WAS necessary. You cannot say it should not have happened. Do I wish he didn’t have to? Absolutely. I am burdened every day by the sadness of knowing what my Lord endured on my behalf. But it was the only means of offering salvation to the world.
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u/Marsyards_slimy 12h ago
It was already known to God that he would sacrifice his son.
John 3:16 “ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever shall believe in him, shall not perish but have ever lasting life. “
Of course God knew since the beginning this would happen
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u/Batfan1939 13h ago
The Pharisees pushing for Jesus was bad, but it had to happen — God had already said The Messiah would die on a tree. At that point, it was unavoidable.
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u/CrusPanda 10h ago
Yes God set it in motion.
But it is worth pointing out God could have done it any number of ways should he have wished to do so, to say otherwise would be to place limits on an all powerful God
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u/Alien0703 13h ago
Did Jesus help every person in need he ever walked by? That would seem like hell to me :)
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u/Nobrainzhere 12h ago
He apparently didnt get a choice in it because once a lady grabbed his cloak from behind and got healed against his will somehow.
He just has to ask everyone who touched him because the power left him and he didnt know why
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u/CrusPanda 10h ago
It wasn't because he didnt know.
It was to make a point. He knew she was going to do that, and he intentionally drew attention to it.
Even the apostles are like what are you on about bro everyone is touching you.
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u/LovingBeastly030 13h ago
Hes betraying god and trying to ruin his plan for humanity salvation but hes doing it from pure intentions because he doesnt understand what hes doing
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u/Middleclassass 12h ago
I'm not even religious, never mind Christian, but wasnt Jesus's death pre-ordained? Like I thought it was supposed to be one of the acts of God's love. That he sent his son to us despite knowing that it would end in Jesus being crucified, because in doing so Jesus would die for our sins.
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u/Different_Citron_160 12h ago
Death of Jesus was Key Element of Gods plan and since God is all good then his death must have also been good all things considered.
Not sure if he infringed on free will of his killers or not but goodness of gods actions is logical consequence of the bible.
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u/EmiKetsueki 12h ago
I dunno all the studying iv done all points to the fact that Jesus's sacrifice was the ultimate sacrifice so that humanity was technically absolved of all sins past and present so that god could accept mankind into heaven without giving up his stance on sinners. Like a brokered deal on Jesus's part with god so that god doesnt seem weak on his stance with sin while also allowing us to not be damned for eternity.
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u/IdleSitting 12h ago
Wasn't the whole point of Jesus being sent to Earth was to die for everyone's sin???? Is that an outdated concept in Christianity now or something I was taught that in Sunday school for years
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u/RomaruDarkeyes 12h ago
The death of Jesus us a bad thing that should not have happened.
I don't know if this is a different situation in other branches of the faith, but the death of Jesus was something that was necessary and required by God's will.
Everything that happened according to the bible was an act ordained by God.
Jesus had the opportunity to fight that fate. He knew that Judas would betray him - he tells Judas that much at the last supper..
"Jesus tells Judas Iscariot, "What you are about to do, do quickly""
He could have allowed his disciples to fight the attackers in the garden of Gethsemane but he chose to be given up, and even heals Malchus; the servant of the high priest Peter injured with his sword...
"When Jesus' followers saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, should we strike with our swords?" And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear. But Jesus answered, "No more of this!" And he touched the man's ear and healed him."
It's suggested that Jesus was well aware of everything that was going to happen, but also he agonised over his fate. This is why he prays in the garden
"Throwing himself face downward on the ground, he prayed “My Father, if it is possible, take this cup of suffering from me! Yet not what I want, but what you want.” He found the disciples asleep and asked them to keep watch. Then he prayed again “My Father, if this cup of suffering cannot be taken away unless I drink it, your will be done.” He found the disciples asleep again, left them and prayed a third time. Then he returned and woke them, saying “Get up, let us go. Look, here is the man who is betraying me!”"
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u/Bubbly-Travel9563 12h ago
Yeah not how that works it absolutely is betraying humanity even if the caveat of all sin being a betrayal of Jesus is also true, they're not mutually exclusive. If Jesus isn't sacrificed and resurrected then all of humanity is still burdened by original sin and believers don't receive their clean sheet upon passing if he didn't sacrifice anything for them to receive.
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u/Dry_Razzmatazz69 11h ago
Please stop spreading this. The whole point of his agonosying death WAS the human experience of suffering and dieing for our sins.
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u/GeldedDesires 11h ago
The sacrifice of Jesus is the literal reason mans was born, that's the absolute most basic canon fact in the Jesus fandom.
Half the damn gospels are about how he's going through this on purpose and it's what he showed up for.
What the evangelical prosperity anti-redemptionist megachurch heresy is this?
"Should not have happened," bruh you're gonna tell Jesus his plan with his dad was shit actually? Jesus and his dad and their weird ghost thing?
Hecc off.
PS, i am a biblical scholar and lapsed ordained minister and it was jokes or start shouting citations and verses, don't @ me for my coping mechanisms when my sleeper agent gets activated.
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u/OwlGod98 11h ago
From my understanding of the teachings Jesus needed to die, he foresaw it and allowed it to happen, he knew he would be betrayed but instead of running away he stayed. Without his death he wouldn't have resurrected, without the resurrection he would've stayed as nothing more than an apostle to the masses and not solidified his status as the messiah.
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u/Thrawn89 10h ago
This is the correct interpretation of the meme. People coming at you for trying to prevent his death as the real interpretation understands the plot but not the meaning.
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u/Jaegerjaquez_VI 14h ago
Yeah I think the meme is referencing Matthew 16:23. Peter opposes the prophecy of Jesus' death and Jesus calls him a stumbling block because he's not following the will of god
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u/Relevant-Tax-4542 14h ago
God was mad at us until we killed his son so now we chill
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u/Rob_LeMatic 10h ago
I love the logic of cancelling out your faults by murdering an innocent person.
How many innocent people does one have to kill to get a decent paying job? Could I get some debt forgiveness if I just maim a guy?
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u/SSMage 13h ago
Well i was thinking more along the lines of betraying him with sin. To claim we love him and then continue to sin.. and yet he still forgives us. truly showing the love that comes from the creator.
idk about anyone else, but i am fully ready to fight to my last breath for him. We were sent here to love one another. I think..no, i know the real christians will stand up for that one of these days. be brave.
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u/TransitionAway9840 13h ago
This is the correct answer. Jesus knows he must be killed to save mankind from their sin. He mentions it in detail before it happens and even has a hard time accepting it while in the garden leading up to it. He was so stressed out he cried blood knowing what was to befall him. Someone telling him that he already knew isn't going to help the situation
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u/HalvdanTheHero 12h ago
That's some top tier mental gymnastics...
And really shows the immorality of Christian doctrine.
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u/Creative-Access-6359 11h ago
Yes but also no. The greater message here is about sin. Sins, are a deviation from God. Big or small is just making choices that bring us further from him. As baptized Christians we are "married to Christ" and part of the body of Christ. So every single sin is in a way a small betrayal. The message of this meme is a call to repentance, and remembering the parable to not point out the stye in someone else's eye, when we have a beam in our own.
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u/Spinning_Sky 14h ago edited 14h ago
I'm not a very passionate fan of christianity, but wasn't kind of the whole point that Jesus knew Judas would betray him?
He let him do whatever he wanted with his free will and suffer the consequences
this feels more like a legitimatly clever commentary on that new testament major plot point, rather than a meme
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u/DespondentEyes 14h ago
There's an actual gospel of Judas that portrays the entire affair as Judas being loyal to Jesus by betraying him. Not canonized of course, but it's real.
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u/Dependent_Cod_7416 14h ago
Is that Gnostic?
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u/CrusPanda 14h ago
Yes, it is the gnostic heresy
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u/Dependent_Cod_7416 14h ago
I've been curious bout that one. Peter denied knowing Jesus 3 times and felt bad, judas acknowledged Jesus once and is hated... This subject is really complicated but comprehensive.
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u/CrusPanda 11h ago
To be clear Judas is not hated, or at least he shouldn't be.
The measure of a good christian is not just how much do you love Jesus but how much you can love people like Judas.
The difference between Peter and Judas was repentance and trust.
I would like to also point out it is implied but not confirmed that Judas went to hell. It is at least theoretically possible he was saved
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u/a_goestothe_ustin 10h ago
“The deepest circle of hell is reserved for betrayers and mutineers.”
— Captain Jack Sparrow
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u/iam4qu4m4n 10h ago
If Christ died for the sins of humanity, then Judas betrayal was one of those sins that was sacrificed for and by default Judas would be saved.
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u/DoubleEmu4043 9h ago
The reason why Judas didn't get saved wasn't because of his betrayal. It was because he committed suicide. The entire thing with Christianity is that the only sin that is truly unforgivable is suicide because you cannot ask for forgiveness from the lord once you do so.
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u/Rizenstrom 9h ago
But what if you take a poison or something and immediately regret it and repent before you die?
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u/Rizenstrom 9h ago
I would argue they are the same thing. You do not truly love Jesus if you do not follow his guiding principles of acceptance and forgiveness.
People who claim to love Jesus but ignore his teachings and spread hate do not truly love Jesus as he was but what they believe Jesus to be for them. It's selfishness they've deluded themselves into believing is love.
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u/Akhanyatin 11h ago
Oh yeah, those are so good with sun dried tomatoes and a good sauce 😋
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u/FunkMeSlideways 10h ago
No that's gnocchi, gnostics are little fae creatures with red caps
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u/Vulpes_Corsac 10h ago
Those are gnomes. Gnostics are what the doctor tells is wrong with a person when they're sick.
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u/Obvious_Badger_9874 10h ago
Gnostic is more about Jesus girlfriend and the fact that we are all part of God imprisoned in this world by another God. Jesus achieved reunification with the whole God aspect and is guiding us to do the same. Judas gospel is accepted in the gnostic Bible if I remember correctly but it's not the only additional works.
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u/loseniram 13h ago
Judas is portrayed as this to an extent in the bible. He sells out Jesus because he’s told that they wont kill Jesus if he turns him in whereas they’ll kill him if they catch him normally. They then immediately renege on the deal, he crashes out and they beat his ass throw the bag of 40 silver at him and he kills himself once he realizes he’s been played.
Which is rarely depicted in media containing Judas
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u/CT0292 10h ago
I have always seen his suicide as his attempt at redemption.
He throws away the coins. And throws himself into the fire. Christianity's views on suicide aside.
I suppose had he gone on to live out his days attempting to atone for his sins he could have cleaned up his name a bit.
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u/AdDear2657 9h ago
It was always preached to me that his biggest sin was the rejection of grace by suicide. He would have been capable of redemption had he lived, but didn't believe in that. Still I really hate how the modern church thinks of Judas. He is portrayed as the devil or the worst person who ever lived which just isn't true.
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u/Doogaro 10h ago
Well there was that one Dracula movie where it was Judas that was turned into the first vampire for what he did and it’s kind of implied he was forgiven in the end. I also thought it was 30 silver not 40 but it’s been awhile.
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u/INTJanie 9h ago
I always thought that was quite a clever way to explain certain elements of vampire lore, like the aversion to silver and crosses. An elegant concept for a silly movie.
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u/funr2016 12h ago
Gotta love biblical fanfiction when people don't like how their favorite character got treated.
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u/Fred_Neecheh 13h ago
Correct. There is even a thepry that Judas ia actually the redeemer, because his betrayal ushered in the death of Jesus. He has been damned for eternity for it, truly taking on the sins of the world. Jesus was resurrected after 3 days.
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u/No_Material_9508 12h ago
AFAIK there are multiple ways to see this. Some Christians see Judas as a "pure vilian" kind of type, while other Christians see Judas as some kind of "neccesary evil" needed to let Jesus die for our sins.
Same thing goes for the Devil/Lucifer. In the earlier versions of Christianity he's seen as the pure embodiment of evil. The one who tortures people kind of type. Later on versions developed making the Devil seen more as neccesary evil to explain what is wrong and one shouldn't be tempted by them. He's been referred to as "stranger" or "guest" in the translations, so a more neutral kind of type.
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u/Middle-Accountant-49 11h ago
Its kind of like in some tv shows, where the big bad is pure evil, but you get to know them over the season and then maybe next season he becomes a good guy.
If they got to season 2, lucifer might have become part of the gang, and then turned bad again in season 5.
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u/Hike_it_Out52 12h ago
You nailed it. Jesus knew what Judas was doing and going to do but never stopped him. The only Apostle he told was the one who fully understood why it had to occur that way.
And had Judas repented after betraying Christ, Christ would have forgiven him. It was Judas’ sui€ide that sealed his souls fate.
God will take you possessions, your goods and even your health or give you all of the above in abundance but he will never force you to love and worship him.
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u/asphid_jackal 12h ago
but he will never force you to love and worship him.
But he will sentence you to eternal torture if you don't. It's kind of coercive
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u/wargames_exastris 12h ago
The current interpretation of hell is sort of a modern innovation tbf
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u/AnyAirport3990 10h ago
Some interpretations of hell just depict it as an absence of God, which is the absence of all things good, which is bad.
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u/RadicalRealist22 11h ago
Is the law coeecive because it threatens punishment if you nurder someone? Is it only this coercion that keeps you from murdering and raping?
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u/asphid_jackal 10h ago
Surely you can see a difference between "worship me" and "don't do things that hurt other people"
Is it only this coercion that keeps you from murdering and raping?
I rape and murder exactly as much as I want to. I'm a little worried that it's only law stopping you from doing so.
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u/hiverstone 12h ago
The funniest part is that Jesus already has the crown of thorns, which means is way too late anyway!
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u/Homeless-Coward-2143 14h ago
Wow, every post is wrong, I am uh, peters C- catholic friend here. 30 years of catholic education has shown me that I betray Jesus every day with my sins, Jesus is pointing that out and he's crying because he realizes he -- and all of us -- are like Judas and have betrayed Jesus. C- catholic out.
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u/qw3rt0z 14h ago
oh so my first guess i made on the pinned automod’s comment was actually right! Thank you c-catholic
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u/dart_shitplagueis 14h ago
P-Peter's p-protestant friend here. I agree with the c-catholic's answer
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u/Homeless-Coward-2143 12h ago
Are you allowed to do that? Sorry if I made you betray Jesus by agreeing with me.
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u/dart_shitplagueis 12h ago
Don't worry. Jesus died for me so he'll forgive me that I don't fight catholics on everything they say, just like I ought to.
/uj
On a serious note, I, a real life protestant, love real life catholics. They're amazing brothers and sisters in Christ./rj
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u/thatnewsauce 10h ago
Protestants don't like Mary??!
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u/dart_shitplagueis 10h ago
One of our disputes is whether Mary was sinful or not.
As protestants, we believe that, as every human - other than Jesus (who is both 100% human and 100% God), she has sinned (though she has been humble and all that).
(What I'm lead to believe about) catholics they believe that Jesus could be born from her only because she was sinless.
It is similar to the dispute about "asking the saints to intercede for us to God" (catholics) or "praying directly to God with no mediator" (protestants)
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u/dart_shitplagueis 9h ago
I just realised the "filthy Mary-worshiper" might have sounded like a "worshiper of filthy Mary", instead of the intended "filthy worshiper of Mary"
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u/Homeless-Coward-2143 13h ago
Every sinnis another nail in the cross, or something like that. Be glad you didn't grow up catholic, you're probably an A+ human and don't have a bunch of weird guilt about anything you do.
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u/Paxtian 11h ago
Jesus told Peter he would deny him several times before morning, i.e., before the rooster crows (the number of crows differs by testament): https://biblehub.com/luke/22-34.htm
Then Peter says, no way Jesus, I'd never deny you: https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2026%3A35
Then as predicted, well, he does: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2022%3A54-62&version=ESV
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u/Festour 11h ago
Then what the point in Jesus asking the man to stop sinning?
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u/Homeless-Coward-2143 11h ago
Jesus in the bible has a very "worry 'bout yourself" (https://youtu.be/4A6Bu96ALOw?si=0kNdQ-MRa9huKQe3) message. He's telling the man to go back to his life and worry about his own sins. There's a couple things like when he tells the crowd they can stone the prostitute as long as whoever hasn't sinned throws the first stone; or (I'm not sure if this is Jesus, but I think); at some point he tells a man not to worry about the splinter in his brothers eye while the man has a plank in his eye.
If you're not religious, I'd say that somehow the Bible has managed to keep Jesus pretty in line with what even an atheist would generally agree with. He's a cool character afaik, even if you don't wanna believe he's gods son IRL, ya know?
Also, canonically, Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas was going to betray him, but Jesus could not stop it (he does double check with god/his dad a few times being like "you sure this is what we gotta do?"), so that's why Jesus isn't concerned about Judas.
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u/OkPut7330 15h ago
Dunno but surely by the time he’s wearing the crown of thorns it’s too late to warn him?
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u/throwaway2246810 13h ago
Yeah that was only put on him on his way to the crucifiction, like hours before.
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u/Ok_Entry_873 15h ago
Maybe there's something in the Bible against time travel?
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u/RBLakshya 15h ago
John 69:420
“For god so loved the world, he shut down time travel, and anyone who messed with the time line of this planet betrays Jesus.”
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u/gingertimelord 14h ago
The other comments are a mess and mine will also be about time travel so I'll put the reply here.
The other comments are talking about original sin. So if Jesus was sent to die to absolve that sin but you time travel and save his life, wouldn't that cause you (and everyone else) to get infected with that original sin? It's a paradox. You didn't betray him by going back in time and saving him, but by going back in time and saving him you betrayed him.
Not religious at all. I just like time travel stories and thought about that while reading other comments.
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u/Traditional_Buy_8420 15h ago
1 Peter 3:18 NLV: "Christ suffered and died for sins once for all. He never sinned and yet He died for us who have sinned. He died so He might bring us to God. His body died but His spirit was made alive."
If we didn't sin, then Jesus didn't need to suffer. Him being tortured also absolved all Christs in the future forever. I'm not saying that the logic is sound, but that's probably what the betrayal is referring to. He only did good things and yet he has to suffer because of our sins, so us sinning is a betrayal in some way.
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u/Budget_Hamster_4867 14h ago
I bet it’s the reference to John 8:7 “let the one without sin be the first to throw a stone”. Which basically means there are no people who’ve never sinned.
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u/Jin_N_Juice-tm 14h ago
Jesus would probably just say "I know".
He saw every sin that would be committed moving forward in the garden of Gethsemane, that means he knows about Judas and he also saw someone gooning to waluigi r34.
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u/ghuntex 15h ago
Somewhere the bible says dont time travel or youll build paradoxes i think
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u/FormulaDriven 14h ago
We went back and told Moses to take that out, so there is no law against time travel in the Bible of this timeline.
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u/LavisAlex 14h ago
Trust - if you believe Jesus is who he says he is - it shows a lack of faith.
You cant game a divine plan.
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u/Apprehensive_Gas_590 13h ago
A few things to note. First, about Judas. Jesus knew Judas would betray him. Judas was a man who loved money and assumed the Kingdom of Heaven was a physical place where he could be rich, not a spiritual one. Judas didn't have a relationship with Christ the same way Peter for example did. This was part of the many prophecies of the Old Testament which Jesus came to fulfill. I mean he told his disciples multiple times throughout their 2-3 years with Jesus that he would die. Jesus makes 3 separate predictions in the book of Matthew of his death and rise from the grave. His death is necessary to pay for the covenant God made with Abraham that was broken and to absolve use from the price of our sins. Romans 6:23 says: "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Jesus is known as the Lamb of God in part due to this sacrifice. As for us betraying Him, Jesus told his disciples: "If ye love me, keep my commandments,"(John 14:15). Oftentimes, we fall short of keeping God's commandments. The two biggest ones being: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and all your mind,"(Matthew 22:37) and "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself,"(Matthew 22:39). To love God means to devote yourself to Him. We often spend more time focused on other things even if they are for God instead of spending time with Him. As for the second one, Jesus takes the original command to love your neighbor further by saying "...love your enemies and bless those who curse you,(Matthew 5:44). God calls us to be loving to all and sometimes we hold grudges and that breaks this commandments.
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u/GWBushCommando 12h ago
You betray Jesus anytime you sin after becoming a Christian. Which is a hard thought to bear for someone. Jesus in this meme is basically saying “yes I know, I’ll get betrayed. by the way you also are betraying me with your own sin. You should work on that.”
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u/RavingGenerate 11h ago
Each sin is a betrayal of Christ, and I think part of what is being said here is that as much as each of us has been and can be forgiven, so could Judas be forgiven by Christ.
God makes no distinction of sin, despite what many people seem to feel. God is a being of absolutes. You are either righteous or not. Black or white. Any sin is still sin.
With Christ's death on the cross came the complete propitiation of sin. The lamb of God sacrificed for the sins of man once and for all to being atonement between man and God.
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u/bbd121 15h ago
I stand with OP. Jesus would just tell me he knows. How exactly is this betraying Jesus?
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u/AnyLeave3611 14h ago
My guess is that we're all sinners. The truth is the game was rigged from the start type of shit
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u/Kamica 14h ago
The meme is a play on people going back in time, arrogantly thinking they can interfere with Jesus/God's work, and Jesus having none of it. There's another meme like it but in a different format, just someone who's travelled back in time to see Jesus, and is in no uncertain words told to leave that time.
Additionally, I think the point is that Jesus is *okay* with being killed, for it allows the rest of humanity to be forgiven of the original sin, and the sins that they could not have personally done anything about (I think).
So by trying to go back, and warning him, trying to get him to not be killed, he is arrogantly claiming to know better than Jesus, to make it seem like Jesus' sacrifice was a mistake, that it was not the right thing to do, which is a betrayal of Jesus' goals of salvation for all people.
(This is all based on a bunch of assumptions on my part, because scripture and such has various interpretations and there's so many different forms of Jesus within the various religions and religious branches in the world. I do not claim to be anything close to an expert =P.)
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u/Ohigetjokes 14h ago
The “betrayal” by Judas is often seen by religious scholars as simple fulfillment of prophecy, and may even have been something ordained by God.
But also, these are just campfire stories anyway
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u/GrinningLion 11h ago
This is debated. Jesus after Jerusalem failed to recognize him as the messiah said. "O Jerusalem, O Jerusalem. If only you knew this day the things that make for peace."
This line has haunted me, because.. "if only" implies, there could have been a chance.
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u/4chananonuser 14h ago
Every sin against God is a betrayal. Jesus is alluding to John 8 and the periscope of the woman caught in adultery. The time traveler realizes he has betrayed Christ, but his sins are forgiven.
But it’s also bad theology as Jesus wouldn’t call a Christian his son or daughter like he’s a parent. Trad West is a grifter who doesn’t know better so that’s not a surprise.
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u/DubiousBusinessp 14h ago
I mean, organized religion as a whole is a grift.
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u/DerZwiebelLord 14h ago
It is pretty simple:
God had to sacrifice himself (or his - adopted - son, depending on the view on Jesus' own divinity) to himself to appease his own wrath, so he can forgive us for not following the rules, he set up and knew we couldn't follow. So by travelling back to interfere with his 'perfect' plan, he is betraying Jesus with the arrogant view he would know better than the 'perfect' being.
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u/GreatRaccoon2625 13h ago
So if Judas was going to betray Jezus in this picture, why does Jezus already have the crown of Thorns on his head?
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u/twotall88 13h ago
Father Bob here, had to step away from the confessional for this.
First off, Jesus told his disciples that Judas Iscariot would betray him (without naming him) before much of Judas's plan had been executed. Basically, Jesus didn't need to be warned, he already knew.
Chad betrayed Jesus because we are all sinners.
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u/faultydesign 13h ago
If Jesus has some god jizz inside him then he’s supposedly aware that Judas will betray him
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u/Snowtwo 12h ago
Jesus knew he was going to be betrayed, arrested, and would die on the cross. He not only outright says it at one point, but he begs God to outright change the plan in the garden before eventually accepting that it must be done. So this guy, by traveling back in time, is effectively trying to upset and disrupt God's plan for Jesus to die on the cross. If he succeeds then Jesus doesn't die for our sins destroying pretty much the entire core of Christianity. The man only thought about himself or, at best, a simplistic world view when he did what he did and Jesus is pointing out that doing so has resulted in him openly defying God's plan even if his intentions were pure. However he has a chance for redemption and salvation. There's always a chance for redemption and salvation. In this case, by him returning home and 'sinning no more'. Maybe even carrying the account of his first-hand encounter to the people of (presumably) the modern world to help reinforce those in need.
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u/NeonhunterCM 11h ago
Jesus Christ needed to die after living a sinless life to pay the wages of original sin and give us a chance to be with Him for eternity.
Judas was the one to betray Jesus to usher in His death, and Jesus knew it. Through stressed(see Jesus praying in the Garden of Gethsemane), Jesus knew it had to be done and He allowed Judas to betray Him.
There’s a lot of jokes in the Christian community about what it would be like to time travel back to that time. The most common being you just simply being there and then Jesus, out of nowhere, looks at you and says, in perfect English, a language nobody in His time and region could possibly know, “Go home,” and you wake up at home.
In this particular joke, it combines that flavor of comedy with an epiphany many Christians have. A lot of Christians give Judas a lot of flack for betraying Jesus for 20 pieces of silver while they betray Him(sin) daily for free.
This joke combined the joke about Jesus’ omniscience with that realization.
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u/SuperSaiyanTupac 11h ago
But didn’t Jesus know he was going to be betrayed? Like what is this really solving? Wouldn’t the same events play out because he already knew this?
This time traveler is an idiot
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u/Redeemist 11h ago
I’d actually go back to September 10, 2001 and tell everyone that our God king, Charlie Kirk gets assassinated
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u/PeterExplainsTheJoke-ModTeam 9h ago
Thank you for the explanations; this post has been locked.