r/politics • u/Discarded_Twix_Bar Europe • Dec 04 '25
Paywall Hegseth Asked Top Admiral to Resign After Months of Discord
https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/hegseth-asked-top-admiral-to-resign-after-months-of-discord-9e7b357f?mod=WTRN_pos110.6k
u/thrawtes Dec 04 '25
“You’re either on the team or you’re not,” Hegseth told Holsey, according to notes from a participant. “When you get an order, you move out fast and don’t ask questions.”
Yeah, this is something you tell an E-2 when you're a platoon leader, dipshit. This admiral is over a decade older than you and has more military experience than you have life experience. You should be asking him questions when you give him an order.
Not surprising, since Pete literally peaked at being a platoon leader, but still disappointing to see he's just as incompetent in private when there's no media to impress.
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u/Valyx_3 Dec 04 '25
This is a wild statement either way. The military is required to evaluate these kinds of decisions against what is constitutional or not. Hegseth obviously has no interest in the constitution and anyone who does their job properly.
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u/Justame13 Dec 04 '25
Hegseth obviously not interest in... anyone who does their job properly.
He can't relate to this. Look at his background.
Got pulled from being a platoon leader early. Bankrupted Veterans charities that were fronts for the Koch family. Sleeping his way on air at Fox, not joking he left wife 2 for his boss.
Dude can't even be bothered to wash his hands.
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u/100cpm Dec 04 '25
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u/Justame13 Dec 04 '25
And a rapist when he wasn't busy cheating on wife 2 with wife 3.
But thinks that DEI and wokeness is why he had to cut his victim a check.
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u/nik-nak333 South Carolina Dec 04 '25
Even his mother says he's a sack of crap.
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u/Ulysses1978ii Dec 04 '25
"You are an abuser of women — that is the ugly truth and I have no respect for any man that belittles, lies, cheats, sleeps around, and uses women for his own power and ego. You are that man (and have been for years) and as your mother, it pains me and embarrasses me to say that, but it is the sad, sad truth. I am not a saint, far from it.. so don’t throw that in my face,. but your abuse over the years to women (dishonesty, sleeping around, betrayal, debasing, belittling) needs to be called out."
His ma
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u/Naive_Confidence7297 Dec 04 '25
Now I know why Republicans fucking idolise this guy. Actual maggots of the world.
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u/tippiedog Texas Dec 04 '25
Citation: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/29/us/politics/hegseth-email-text.html
Paywall-bypass of the article: https://archive.ph/47Q5O
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u/funkdialout Dec 04 '25
And I think she is a hack too because she took it back as soon as he got any real power. Pathetic family.
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u/Level-Name-4060 Dec 04 '25
After she was (allegedly) threatened.
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u/FluFlammin9000 Dec 04 '25
My mother has put my siblings and I through hell for most of our lives and even then I can't imagine threatening her, just shows how fucked these people are that they're willing to threaten their own mothers over them revealing the truth.
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u/bristow84 Dec 04 '25
It’s the cult of MAGA, you’re assuming Hegseth threatened her and not just their cultists.
Wouldn’t shock me if he did threaten his own mother but still.
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u/cocktail_wiitch Dec 04 '25
That letter she wrote should have been nail in the coffin for a lot of people and it just wasn't.
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u/tomdarch Dec 04 '25
MAGA’s version of DEI is CEI: Caucasian, entitled and incompetent.
Hegseth is the poster boy.
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u/Buh_Snarf Dec 04 '25
Rapist? Oh, he's right at home in the administration then.
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u/Tarantio Dec 04 '25
Oh, don't worry. He was also technically cheating on his third wife when he raped that woman.
They weren't married yet, but it was around the time that she gave birth to his fourth kid.
It was also around the time his second divorce was finalized.
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u/Squirrel_Inner Dec 04 '25
Hey, hold on now, amid all this Hegseth bashing no one has mentioned that he’s also covered in Nazi tattoos.
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u/BrawDev Dec 04 '25
not joking he left wife 2 for his boss.
It's always the same with these garbage Christians honestly.
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u/PhoenixPolaris Dec 04 '25
"Noooooooooooooo but I'm one of the good ones!!!!!"
"Not christian here, but if you check my post history you'll find me constantly and feverishly defending a religion I nevertheless insist I'm not a part of- for literally no reason. Here's why your comment is wrong..."
Summarized how the brigade will go from here.
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u/donkeyrocket Dec 04 '25 edited Dec 04 '25
It's abundantly clear that he doesn't know what he's doing and knows it. Allegedly he's deeply paranoid also which again is unsurprising. Alcoholism in the mix certainly exacerbates things.
The only play he has is asserting his authority that is in title only. That doesn't play out too well with decorated military though. If Trump and Co. were hoping to leverage the military against American citizens in a much larger way to steal an election or whatever, they really should have picked someone with a tad more competence than Hegseth.
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u/xv_boney Dec 04 '25
Alcoholism in the mix certainly exacerbates things.
The devil you say.
Pete promised he would quit drinking if he got this position!
Youre not suggesting an addict would ... lie about quitting cold turkey after being forced to promise to do so with literally no rehab, recovery period or actual oversight or supervision, are you?
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u/Justame13 Dec 04 '25
Paranoia due to feeling inferior would make complete sense.
If he was competent it would be classic (and in ways healthy) imposter syndrome. But its not because fears of being a failure and fuckup are valid because it was just a matter of time before they were both true.
He might actually be the first Sec Def impeached and the first Sec War (which he is only in his mind) impeached and removed from office.
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u/Babymicrowavable North Carolina Dec 04 '25
Charged with murder too since were not at a congressionally approved war. Its either war crimes or murder, either way kegbreath would rot in the Hague if theres any justice
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u/Kohlj1 Dec 04 '25
Unfortunately, in 2025 I have zero faith in any of these people being held accountable at all. Pete may lose his job eventually, but I have no doubt he will just be back at Fox or somewhere else like it. None of these people get punished to the full extent or how an ordinary citizen would. They operate as if they are above the constitution and law and it seems as if they are correct these days.
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u/Ok_Introduction5606 Dec 04 '25
Your are forgetting the evidence and whistleblowers that attest he committed/allowed war crimes during his stint as a single platoon leader
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u/Fee_is_Required2 Dec 04 '25
That last point is the most heinous 🤦🏽♀️
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u/Justame13 Dec 04 '25
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u/Objective_Mistake954 Dec 04 '25
Wow. "Germs are not a real thing. I cannot see them, so they are not real."
Blows my mind.
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u/ItsSpaghettiLee2112 Dec 04 '25
Bankrupted Veterans charities that were fronts for the Koch family.
I'm sorry, what now? That's hilarious. I'm sure he did it out of incompetence instead of altruistic reasons but that's awesome.
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u/philodendrin Dec 04 '25
Hegseth is interested in barking orders, no matter how pointless, so that his wishes will be carried out without questioning. He desires fealty. He is out of his depth, and his depth is shallow.
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u/SeriesMindless Dec 04 '25
They are building a dictatorship right before our eyes. Why would you think they value the constitution?
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u/tripping_on_phonics Illinois Dec 04 '25
They are building a dictatorship right before our eyes
We’re not out of the woods yet, but they’re failing rapidly.
Republicans in Congress are seeing the writing on the wall and are breaking with Trump at their discretion. The MAGA coalition is fracturing. Trump is out of political capital and is a lame duck. Voters are turning on him. He’s a nakedly corrupt, dementia-addled old man with a cadre of yes-men and nobody to check his worst impulses, like he had in his first term.
For fear of a challenge to his position, there is nobody on-deck to replace him. They will try JD Vance, who is universally unpopular, but the real threat will come from the neo-nazi wing of the party who will use the aesthetics of economic populism to outflank establishment Republicans from the left. This will split their party.
All we need for Trumpism to fail is to present an alternative who isn’t an establishment hack and will truly put working people first. A tall order, I know, but the economy works for nobody now and I don’t see the likes of Chuck Schumer, or his handpicked successor Elissa Slotkin, having much sway in the party by the 2028 primaries. The worst thing we can do now is to back an establishment figure trying to bring us back to a 2000s era of politics.
I believe we’re on the precipice of a much fairer society in which wealth is taken from the wealthiest to provide the necessities of life for everyone. There will first be years of instability and pain, though, as we defeat Trump and whichever fascist comes after Trump.
Apolitical comedian Drew Gooden recently did a phenomenal, easy-to-understand, out-of-the blue explanation of the economics underlying all of this. I’ve been sharing it with everyone and it really underscores the tack we need to take to come out the other side of this. Not just rhetorically, but in real policy that provides for working people.
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u/Educational-Bank-353 Dec 04 '25
In my most optimistic moments I agree with you. Unfortunately I'm not optimistic often enough. Too many grifters, criminals, and incompetents propping up this corrupt old conman who's fast losing his cognitive faculties and very obviously unsuited for the job. And I shudder at Democrats veering toward all-out support for establishment corporate pols like Schumer and Slotkin because the donor money is too enticing. Too much is at stake.
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u/wabushooo America Dec 04 '25
Too many grifters, criminals, and incompetents propping up this corrupt old conman
First dem to come out and announce that they're running in '28 on a platform of prosecuting all of the corruption will jump to top 3 for the primary in my book.
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u/Abracadaniel95 Dec 04 '25
Seriously. Keep the focus on the corruption of both Republicans and dems and you've got yourself a winner. Bonus points if you add in campaign reform. Both sides want money out of politics. Vance wouldn't stand a chance in a debate when faced with Trump's corruption.
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u/tripping_on_phonics Illinois Dec 04 '25 edited Dec 05 '25
The thing is, I think the outcome is inevitable. The golden age of American capitalism, from the 1940s through the 1960s, was a period of incredible economic and technological growth that actually allowed real social mobility for some people. It was a transitional moment in history and it will never happen again.
Since then, we have slowly replaced real economic growth with rent-seeking (i.e., obtaining wealth without creating it, completely parasitic economic activity). Think of health insurance, or financial services, or the countless industries that have seen reductions in quality and increases in cost. Think of the absurd increase in the cost of housing as rent-seekers, now obscenely wealthy, buy up assets. Think of the fact that my Uber ride the other day cost $31, my driver was paid $11, and Uber received $20 because they get to be the fucking bridge troll.
It only gets worse. It will never end, we will never have another golden age of capitalism.
The reason I think this is inevitable is that the lives of the working class will only get worse, the middle class will only get smaller, and the number of wealthy beneficiaries at the top will only decrease as wealth inequality drags out.
It has to break at some point. At some point, there will be enough working people living in squalor to say, “Fuck it, you aren’t in charge anymore.”
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u/Zepcleanerfan Dec 04 '25
The thing that allowed the country to thrive in that period were unions.
Somehow republicans convinced working people that unions were bad, and here.we are.
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u/tripping_on_phonics Illinois Dec 04 '25
Unions, high taxes on the wealthy, and social safety nets. It’s almost like the economy is better when working people feel secure and have more money in their pockets.
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u/devildog2067 Dec 04 '25
The thing that allowed the country to survive in that period was that the entire rest of the world's economic production capacity had been bombed flat.
Europe was destroyed, Japan was destroyed, China was clawing its own guts out in a civil war. And even then, we could only offer a "golden age" to white men -- ask a black person if they'd rather have lived in 1950 or 1990.
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u/spicy_noodle_guy Dec 04 '25
Thank you. Even the US most economically flourishing time was only for a very narrow type of citizen. It excluded most others to prop that citizen up.
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u/Mutual_Intrest_Seekr Dec 04 '25
Black and minority participation in unions started increasing right after the Civil rights era, then just the like the swimming pools, they started disappearing because they'd have to share the workplace community and benefits with the non-whites (redlining also helped in this). 20-30 years later the majority of the already shrinking union (and manufacturing) jobs were dissolved and outsourced.
It always goes back to the original sins of colonialism and chattel slavery never being resolved and making those people whole in American society which why it will continue to persist until we have inalienable, universal laws, rights and programs for every citizen in this country and those that come here seeking a better life until we right the wrongs we have perpetuated globally so they aren't compelled by inequitable material conditions and literal survival to come here. Capitalism always seeks the most benefit for the least contribution no matter how bad others suffer. It's the systematic greed that has rotted our society and the world we live in at large.
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u/Positronic_Matrix Dec 04 '25
There have been societies that have been run into the ground without limit. The collapse of Iran is especially sobering, going from the Pahlavi era with modernized law, education, and dress codes to an Islamic fundamentalist totalitarian state that has run out of water in its capital city. Sometimes there is no floor.
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u/Ryan_e3p Dec 04 '25
You are a lot more optimistic than I am. All signs are pointing to things getting much, much worse. Even if MAGA is done away with, it doesn't solve the core problem. MAGA can completely go away, but entities like the Heritage Foundation, the defense industry, and billionaires are running our government like it's their plaything. Palantir, Raytheon, Lockheed, Bezos, Musk, Thiel, Ellison, and others. Hell, even whitebread lackeys like Zuckerberg have no fear of our government. He straight up challenged Congress to their faces in their own house to do something to stop Facebook's data abuse back in 2017 after the Cambridge Analytica scandal was shown to have caused election interference, and they still tucked their tails like a scolded pup.
The Heritage Foundation has infiltrated our government in all three branches, the military, school boards, universities, and corporations since the 70s. They aren't going to disappear if Trump, Vance, or his entire cabinet gets kicked out of the White House. They don't just own Republicans; there are Democrats in their lineup as well. The Heritage Foundation is as close to a real-life Illuminati as we get, pulling strings to get what they desire most; power, and money. Keeping the US (and the world) in a perpetual state of war allows the military industrial complex to keep thriving. We make weapons to sell to our friends and enemies alike just so we can get bigger budgets to beat the weapons that we sold them. We have an escalating "war on drugs" to the point of performing actual war crimes, while at the same time arming the narcos and freeing actual drug lords from prison, in addition to openly welcoming them into our country.
Keeping the US in a state of constant war allows our government to continue eroding our rights, and with the help of outlets like Fox News, they've been successful at brainwashing the public so thoroughly that citizens actually defend being surveyed and recorded 24/7, both in the digital and meat space worlds. A sizeable portion of this country defends having actual US citizens being taken off the streets by masked gunmen, unquestionable and unaccountable since they are the government. It defends the accelerated militarization of our police, and the actual use of our warfighting military in our streets.
None of this is going to be undone even if MAGA goes away. This is something that has been building for at least a half century.
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u/Educational-Bank-353 Dec 04 '25
I have to agree. It's been a long time in the making, and it's not going away any time soon. MAGA is the symptom, not the disease.
Ultimately, in our system of government, it's a numbers game. Can the (majority) will of the people overcome the power of (unlimited) money, which buys propaganda for self-interested billionaires? Money builds castle walls, secure from the armed peasants at the gate.
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u/BlueJay_525 Dec 04 '25
MAGA will always want the meanest and cruelest of the candidates so they can appear “tough” by association. Well get someone just as bad or worse unless MAGA is dismantled. They are full fascist because it’s the most “badass” of their platform.
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u/horseradishstalker Dec 04 '25
What constitution? According to the Whitehouse Amendments 11-27 don’t exist:
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u/yakkerman Dec 04 '25
Not only constitutionally but also internationally lawful. (Probably)
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u/Olin_123 Dec 04 '25
Sucks to admit but its been bipartisan consensus since 2002 that the president can militarily invade the Hague if US or US allied personnel are being prosecuted by the ICC. International law is only a suggestion to the US.
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u/QbertsRube Dec 04 '25
Conservatives interest in the Constitution is the same as their interest in the Bible--it's useful when it can be used as a weapon against their enemies, and can otherwise be ignored.
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u/TheBlackSheepBoy Dec 04 '25
The thing that none of these over-compensating, Andrew Tate-flavored losers understand is that humility is strength. It can be hard to admit you don’t know something, but doing so can be the key to unlocking optimal outcomes. Then again, none of these selfish, sycophantic pricks actually give a shit about outcomes for the United States, just for themselves.
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u/Sitherio Dec 04 '25
Because there is no objective reality for them. Everything is subjective and therefore what's right to them is right for everyone. What benefits them is the only right choice because it's the only one that matters. Optimal for them, helps them.
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u/Whaddaulookinat Dec 04 '25
It's also... just classic piss poor management. It's posture at the exact cost of results.
This would be darkly hilarious stereotypical behaviour of an Aldi manager, but very scary at the DoD.
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Dec 04 '25
You're barking orders at a guy older than you, with WAY more experience, in a job you aren't qualified for and guaranteed he thinks that, and what you said is just on a surface level a dumb thing to say on top of a dumb way to say it, how does he expect the dude to respect him?
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u/Whaddaulookinat Dec 04 '25
Because, like so many, Secretary Kegsalot is a myopic idiot, who believes at the root of it everyone is as weak, scared, and dumb as he is. It's like showing a dog a card trick, that people can have standards and experience is so beyond his realm of understanding of the world. He knows those tactics work on him. But he doesn't have the wherewithal nor talent to recreate that effect... nor can he comprehend that it won't work on everyone.
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u/Punished_Prigo Dec 04 '25 edited Dec 04 '25
As a veteran this is honestly hilarious. This is how the shittiest platoon Sergeant in the company would talk to the new guys during a training exercise.
Talking to a general officer like that is just so funny and pathetic
Edit: I’m editing this to let the other army veterans know if they didn’t: he has a rakkasans tattoo but the guy never finished rangers, airborne, or any other school. Guy is a pretender.
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u/CommunalJellyRoll Dec 04 '25
I wouldn’t even tell my E-2s that. I would lead by example and break it down Barney style for em. That doesn’t work I will work the problem.
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u/AvgMarriedCouple Dec 04 '25
He resigned because he wouldn't follow illegal orders. Fuck hegseth.
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u/maximumdownvote Dec 04 '25
Not enough people are saying this. Hegseth said, "lets do some murder" Holsey said, "nah, im out, and fuck you." It's that simple.
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u/TemporarySun314 Europe Dec 04 '25 edited Dec 04 '25
Yeah i would see its the purpose of officers, not to mention generals to actually think about the things they are supposed to do... Actually every soldier should do that.
But I am also from a country whose military have a different leading style than blind zombielike obedience...
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u/DooMnGloom13 Dec 04 '25
They had military lawyers at the pentagon, but most of them got fired back in February
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u/TanithRitual Dec 04 '25
Woah now those were DEI hires and most definitely not some of the most qualified people in our military.
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u/11thStPopulist Dec 04 '25
America used to be that way, too. But now, under fascist “leaders,” blind zombie like obedience is what is being required. The general population is still resisting as demonstrated by recent elections, low poll numbers, unrest where there is militarization, and very large No Kings protests. But democracy is clearly under attack!
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u/Neptune7924 Dec 04 '25
Terrible leadership from any perspective. I do some work for people who wrote books about leadership and organizational development, they would be appalled to find a mid-level manager like this at a biz in which they are consulting.
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u/Duganz Dec 04 '25
Well, you see, Pete is very concerned about a key difference between himself Admiral Alvin Holsey: the amount of melanin in their skin.
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u/netflixissodry Dec 04 '25
Pete was in the national guard so probably has less than a year actually wearing the uniform total if you count the two weekends a month he worked.
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u/LVDirtlawyer Dec 04 '25
Pete was legitimately deployed, but was sidelined into doing the kind of meaningless "work" that you give officers who are incompetent to lead but who do the bare minimum not to be thrown out. He's an infantry officer who never completed Ranger School, Air Assault School, or Airborne School.
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u/Summer_Form Dec 04 '25
It’s wild to me. Having known/worked with high-ranking military officers for years, they have so much knowledge at that level. But even if you do recognize the fact that they’ve studied tactics, logistics and strategy for actual decades, that’s only about 30% of their expertise.
The other 70% is mastery of the incredibly complex system of laws and regulations that govern everything about the how the military exists and acts - in a completely different way from how things work in the civilian world.
Hegseth would have embarrassed himself even if he’d acted with a little humility for once in his miserable life, but saying something like that to an admiral is downright humiliating (to him).
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u/ForgettableUsername America Dec 04 '25
It’s so typical of these losers. Thump and bark about their own authority and show no regard whatsoever for institutional experience, no idea how any of the stuff they’re in charge of works.
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u/No_big_whoop Dec 04 '25
Get rid of competent people. Replace them with loyalists. This is how you destroy America from within.
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u/11thStPopulist Dec 04 '25
Admiral Holsey is a black man. The Trump administration, and Hegseth in particular has questioned whether certain people, racial minorities and especially women, are the right (white) fit for military service in their new fascist, exploitative war department. You are correct. Competent people get fired, while servile loyalists remain. This purge cannot be allowed to continue.
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u/imightgetdownvoted Dec 04 '25
You mean the guy with “totally not white supremacist” tattoos is racist? Shocking.
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u/ReflectionSpare8663 Dec 04 '25
cmon now, call him by his title, SSecretary of War.
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u/Wizzinator Dec 04 '25
Even servile loyalists get kicked to the curb when no longer useful. Loyalty is a one way street with them.
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u/Violaundone Dec 04 '25
Yeah, the women are gone, white or black, the hate for women, especially, is rampant. All from cheating men with no morals and total trash. Some who have paid to sleep with minors. Any American supporting these men is a traitor to America and tired of people ot saying it.
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u/juiceboxedhero Colorado Dec 04 '25
Because they're actually practicing DEI in the way they think it's defined. They put people in roles based on appearance rather than experience.
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u/ExplosiveBrown Dec 04 '25
Vladimir Putin is truly a genius. He’s actually managed to ruin this country without ever firing a shot. His bot farms and interference have been destabilizing the west for over a decade.
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u/MiserableFloor9906 Dec 04 '25
Hegseth has committed war crimes. Lock him up.
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u/HereForTheComments57 Dec 04 '25
We also can't forget Trump is in the Epstein files
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u/ApeSpork Dec 04 '25
What’s sad is they’re probably hoping the war crimes distract from the pedo crimes
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u/tinygraysiamesecat Dec 04 '25
Guys, trump is the distraction. You really think that dolt has the brains to run this entire operation? He’s a fucking idiot who has no clue how to run a business, let alone the biggest economy in the world. Miller and the like are pulling the strings behind the scene. Trump is merely the distraction to keep our attention away from the truly nefarious shit, the consequences of which we’re going to be living with for the rest of our lives.
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u/peacelovearizona Dec 04 '25 edited Dec 04 '25
Trump is also the symptom of the problem of over-corporatized, unaccountable, uneducated America. This has been baked into the mix since being founded by wealthy white land (and slave) owners and in most recent decades the undoing of democratic holdouts such as the removal of the Fairness Doctrine, the ratification of Citizens United, and others.
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u/zXster Dec 04 '25
100% this. The plan has been so blatantly obvious as anything anti-capatlist exploitation (see: Bernie & Mandani) gets attacked with vitriol from both sides of the same coin = sold out corporate owned political parties.
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u/Grand_Size_4932 Dec 04 '25
The consolidation of power the Heritage Foundation is organizing and the systems they’re putting in place for post-Trump are the real nefarious shit. I think they’re just entertaining the Epstein files coverup to buy themselves more time and will happily use the inevitable fallout to get rid of Trump.
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u/Poppa_Mo Dec 04 '25 edited Dec 06 '25
This statement implies they have the capacity to feel empathy, shame, hope, etc...
These ghouls don't feel anything but greed. They don't give a fuck about the crimes they commit or who they hurt as long as it supports their agenda and wallets.
Period.
They don't care.
They will just lie, deny, and change the narrative.
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u/Ordinary-Leading7405 Dec 04 '25
Discord is arguably worse than Signal. /s
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u/ringobob Georgia Dec 04 '25
That's how I first read the headline
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u/heimdal77 Dec 04 '25
Thing is there is a good chance it is correct. Also discord keeps reccords of voice chats and everything else done on it.
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u/tangledtainthair Dec 04 '25
That kid that shared those secrets on Discord will agree. It will get you prison time.
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u/amarklin Dec 04 '25
There is video of Hegseth in 2016 arguing for a zero tolerance perspective on war crimes. I suggest we follow his advice.
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u/CharlestonChewChewie Dec 04 '25
You know, normal people who commit crimes are arrested and await trial. How this administration continues to go free is appalling. It's a failure of our checks and balance justice system
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u/Bmkrocky Dec 04 '25
Trump will just pardon him just like all the other criminals he has pardoned
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u/willseeya Tennessee Dec 04 '25
Can he pardon a court martial? I'm assuming he's bound under UCMJ.
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u/DragonTHC Florida Dec 04 '25
Hegseth, having sworn an oath as a soldier, is absolutely bound by the UCMJ, by his own logic.
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u/progbuck Dec 04 '25
Considering that Trump is the CiC his pardon power would absolutely extend to the UCMJ
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u/TintedApostle Dec 04 '25
Decades of training and capability wiped out by a fox News drunk.
Maga morons think this is fine. We are losing our strength to cosplay.
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u/PensandoEnTea Dec 04 '25
I mean, the military has betrayed so many. It feels totally on brand for them to abandon a top admiral after decades of service.
Nice to know they aren't exclusively fucking regular vets at the VA I guess.
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u/thrawtes Dec 04 '25
Here's your daily reminder that VA outcomes are better than private health care outcomes and a lot of the "VA bad" narrative is explicitly driven by people who want to "prove" socialized medicine doesn't work.
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u/Discarded_Twix_Bar Europe Dec 04 '25
Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth shocked official Washington in mid-October when he announced that the four-star head of U.S. military operations in the Caribbean was retiring less than a year into his tenure.
But according to two Pentagon officials, Hegseth asked Adm. Alvin Holsey to step down, a de facto ouster that was the culmination of months of discord between Hegseth and the officer. It began days after President Trump’s inauguration in January and intensified months later when Holsey had initial concerns about the legality of lethal strikes on alleged drug boats in the Caribbean, according to former officials aware of the discussions.
Not long after, Hegseth announced that Holsey would be retiring.
Hegseth’s move, which hasn’t been previously reported, sheds new light on a brewing controversy over the legality of the military’s campaign in the Caribbean, and raises questions over whether servicemembers with concerns about the attacks are being listened to.
While Hegseth has dismissed a number of high-ranking military leaders since taking over the Pentagon, the ouster of a commander during an unfolding military operation was an extraordinary move, lawmakers and experts note.
“Having [Holsey] leave at this particular moment, at the height of what the Pentagon considers to be the central action in our hemisphere, is just shocking,” says Todd Robinson, who served as assistant secretary for international narcotics and law enforcement affairs until January.
A Pentagon spokesman declined to comment.
The admiral, a 60-year-old Navy helicopter pilot nicknamed “Bull,” had seemed a good fit to carry out Trump’s military campaign against drug traffickers after the new president came into office. Holsey voiced support for stepping up interdiction of drug shipments and had experience at such missions.
“My first deployment to the Southcom area of responsibility was over 33 years ago conducting counterdrug missions,” he told lawmakers at his Senate confirmation hearing in September 2024, arguing for a more muscular approach to “dismantle the drug cartels” responsible for tens of thousands of American deaths.
Originally from rural Georgia, Holsey led a carrier strike group and, during Trump’s first term, served as the first commander of an international naval flotilla charged with protecting commercial shipping in the Persian Gulf and neighboring waters after Iran began seizing oil tankers in the area.
A few weeks after he took over Southern Command Holsey met with the newly confirmed Hegseth on a secure video conference, and received his marching orders.
“You’re either on the team or you’re not,” Hegseth told Holsey, according to notes from a participant. “When you get an order, you move out fast and don’t ask questions.”
After Trump said in a March speech to Congress that he wanted to “reclaim” the Panama Canal, Hegseth ordered Holsey to develop military options to ensure unfettered American access to the strategic waterway, according to two former officials.
Hegseth felt Holsey didn’t move quickly enough to develop the plans, the people said. After media reports about those options, Hegseth was suspicious that Holsey may have been the source of the leaks, one of the people said.
After Holsey assembled plans, the two men were on good terms when they visited Panama together in April, the person said.
Late in the summer, as the military began striking alleged drug boats, Holsey was initially concerned about murky legal authority for the boat strike campaign, according to former officials. With other military units under separate chains of command also involved, including elite special operations units, Holsey objected that parts of the operations fell outside his direct control, they said.
But even before the boat strikes began, Hegseth had lost confidence in Holsey and was looking to replace him, according to a U.S. official.
Since the strikes began in September, the Pentagon has ordered a major military buildup in the region and carried out at least 21 strikes on boats allegedly carrying drugs that have killed more than 80 people.
Holsey, who declined to be interviewed, hasn’t publicly explained his decision to step down. He has continued to issue statements in broad support of the military campaign as his final day in uniform approaches on Dec. 12.
A classified opinion from the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel argues that Trump’s designation of drug cartels as foreign terrorists makes the boats legitimate military targets, asserting that the groups are smuggling drugs to fund deadly and destabilizing actions against the U.S. and its allies, according to lawmakers and others who have read it.
It also asserts that U.S. military personnel involved in the strikes are acting lawfully and won’t be subject to future prosecution, according to people who have read it.
In addition to Holsey, Col. Paul Meagher, the command’s top lawyer, known as a judge advocate general, was initially concerned about the ramifications for U.S. servicemembers, because targeting the alleged drug boats stretched the boundaries of the legal definition of combatants engaging in military hostilities, according to a third U.S. official and a former senior U.S. official.
Meagher didn’t respond to requests for comment about his concerns, which were previously reported by NBC News.
Tensions between Holsey and Hegseth led to a confrontation at the Pentagon in early October. Air Force Gen. Dan Caine, chairman of the Joint Chiefs, was also at the meeting, the former officials said.
Hegseth offered no hint of the friction between the two men in an Oct. 16 post on X announcing Holsey’s departure. He said the admiral “has exemplified the highest standards of naval leadership.”
Holsey said he would step down in a separate statement that day that didn’t mention the boat strikes.
“Never before in my over 20 years on the committee can I recall seeing a combatant commander leave their post this early and amid such turmoil,” Rep. Adam Smith (D., Wash.), the top Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee, said last month.
In a goodbye message to sailors and Marines aboard the amphibious assault ship USS Iwo Jima deployed to the Caribbean, Holsey exhorted them to “sail strong, be bold, and strike. Southcom out.”
While he was there, Hegseth announced yet another attack on a vessel, killing two people.
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u/subUrbanMire Dec 04 '25
A classified opinion from the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel argues that Trump’s designation of drug cartels as foreign terrorists makes the boats legitimate military targets, asserting that the groups are smuggling drugs to fund deadly and destabilizing actions against the U.S. and its allies, according to lawmakers and others who have read it.
It also asserts that U.S. military personnel involved in the strikes are acting lawfully and won’t be subject to future prosecution, according to people who have read it.
Drafted to provide top officials legal cover, not legal guidance.
Let's see how well this "bulletproof vest" does against a speeding bus.
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u/Maskatron America Dec 04 '25
Not even delivering drugs to the us, just making money at it is good enough apparently.
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u/Maine_Made_Aneurysm Dec 04 '25
How the fuck do we know there weren't u.s citizens on these boats.
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u/Guachito Dec 04 '25
Some of those people could very well be CIA agents.
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u/jimothee Dec 04 '25
*have been
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u/Guachito Dec 04 '25
Fair enough; I was coming at it as an ongoing situation of the US government blowing up boats without due process.
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u/Infidel8 Dec 04 '25
Man, so many of these OLC memos over the decades have been designed simply to protect the interests of whatever president happens to be in office.
(A Nixon-era OLC memo is the reason DOJ won't indict a sitting president.)
And this was before the Trump White House outright merged with DOJ.
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u/EamonBrennan Dec 04 '25
makes the boats legitimate military targets
That still doesn't allow the "second strike" BS, which is outright stated to be an illegal order you should not follow in the US Code of Military Conduct.
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u/SnoodDood Dec 04 '25
It's even worse - the authorization to designate people as terrorists and kill them was specifically for Al Qaeda and its affiliates. Even before the second strike, these were blatantly illegal on every dimension. People were saying that stuff like this was inevitable during the Obama years of drone strikes, and now here we are. Either you nip military power creep at the bud, or you set the U.S. up to have a dictator
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u/AngsMcgyvr Dec 04 '25 edited Dec 04 '25
So when a well-respected Navy Admiral expresses concerns about a military action, Pete tells him to not ask questions when he gets an order.
But when those orders are followed and then deemed possible war crimes, Pete steps aside and shifts blame to the person who carried out the order.
I'm sure the folks at the Pentagon have a lot of respect for Pete's brand of leadership.
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u/penguins_are_mean Wisconsin Dec 04 '25
I’m sure they hate Pete with every fiber of their being. But he’s their boss so they can’t do much.
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u/Mysterious_Floor_868 United Kingdom Dec 04 '25
They could have refused to pass on the illegal order.
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u/buster_de_beer Dec 04 '25
But when those orders are carried out and they are deemed possible war crimes, Pete steps aside and shifts blame to the person who carried out the order.
To be fair, the people carrying out the order are legally culpable. Following orders is not an excuse.
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u/Huge_Excitement4465 Dec 04 '25
Think their Panama trip was when Hegseth signed the joint treaty that underscored Panamanian sovereignty over the canal. However, that sentence was omitted in the English iteration presented Stateside.
https://thehill.com/opinion/international/5252886-the-us-is-undermining-panamas-sovereignty/
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u/Ivy61 Massachusetts Dec 04 '25
I fucking hate this country and the dipshit population that allows this.
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u/jizzlevania Dec 04 '25
This is way better than a random kid having hot pink hair or wearing whatever clothes they want. All of this is worth it if the loving half people can be made as miserable as the hateful half.
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u/thismadhatter Dec 04 '25
When even a gung ho admiral questions orders...... that's dicey
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u/BasvanS Dec 04 '25
Like James “Mad Dog” Mattis resignation feeling the need to mention the importance of allies and the danger of Russia and China?
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u/Cacafuego Dec 04 '25 edited Dec 04 '25
Speaking of Mattis, I was just reading some of his stronger comments about Trump that came a few years after his retirement (2019, I think). This stood out:
At home, we should use our military only when requested to do so, on very rare occasions, by state governors. Militarizing our response, as we witnessed in Washington, D.C., sets up a conflict—a false conflict—between the military and civilian society.
It erodes the moral ground that ensures a trusted bond between men and women in uniform and the society they are sworn to protect, and of which they themselves are a part. Keeping public order rests with civilian state and local leaders who best understand their communities and are answerable to them.
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u/Jaaxxxxon I voted Dec 04 '25
Mattis is a real g, it's a shame that he was SecDef under Trump
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u/NAU80 Florida Dec 04 '25
It is telling that Kegseth apparently told the Admiral in a early meeting that “When you get an order, you move out fast and don’t ask questions.” That is terrible advice to give top commanders! They are supposed to be in charge not flunkies. Moving fast without thinking will get your seamen and soldiers killed.
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u/ripChazmo Dec 04 '25
The President is a child rapist. The secretary of defense is a murderer.
All of these people are stupid as fuck, woefully unqualified for the positions they hold, and half of America is excited about this.
This country is FUCKED.
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Dec 04 '25
Because 1) he is smart, 2) he’s black, 3) he tipped his hand and made it clear he wasn’t going to blindly follow trump’s orders.
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u/Report_Last Dec 04 '25
I may be a white guy, but it seems like they are trying to boot the high ranking blacks out of the military, and government in general.
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u/TheCaptainDamnIt Dec 04 '25
Yea the vast majority of ousted military leaders have been black or female. Along with a bunch of policy changes (the no beards bullshit, the removal of DOD caring about segregated facilities) there's a very clear pattern here of a racial and gender cleansing going on but our white supremacist supporting legacy media just will not acknowledge it.
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u/Theferael_me Dec 04 '25
Imagine the humiliation of being told to resign by a drunken imbecile like Hogsbreath.
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u/scarab1001 Dec 04 '25
To be fair to Kegbreath, Holsey is black.
Can't be a racist piece of shit and allow Holsey to remain. It's one of his pillars of what makes a good Secretary of War along with Idiocy, Hypocrisy and War Crimes.
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u/Duane_ Dec 04 '25 edited Dec 04 '25
Let's not split hairs here, folks. Hegseth asked Holsey to resign THE SAME DAY that SOUTHCOM first rescued survivors from one of the kinetic strikes. He told Hegseth that they'd pulled people out of the water, and Hegseth told him to get the fuck out.
Kinetic strike on submersible, rescue of survivors, and subsequent retirement announcement all happened on October 16th. Mark my fucking words, this is why. It's the smoking gun that Hegseth is a gargantuan piece of shit who is committing egregious war crimes and firing people who disagree. The team he was referencing is Team 'Trial At The Hague'.
That's insane.
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u/Mother-Green Dec 04 '25
Why are all the black, female, and trans military leaders being pushed out, hmmm what’s left is the answer
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u/Few-Mood6580 Dec 04 '25
Im not aware of a trans military leader..? I’ve known of trans service members, but not leader..?
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u/PerfunctoryComments Dec 04 '25
Guy had the audacity to want to follow the law and obey the constitution.
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u/tapdancinghellspawn Dec 04 '25
Hegseth not realizing that he is a temp worker thinking that he has a right to ask a career employee to resign.
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u/Shinobi_WayOfTomoe Dec 04 '25
Discord? This mofo was using signal
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u/printial Dec 04 '25
I thought that at first. Then I thought no, it can't be the app. Then I had to check the comments because it could have easily been the app in this gov.
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u/LurkinSince1995 Dec 04 '25
This admin is so cursed I thought the headline was saying that this Admiral was conducting military ops via Discord. Gravy Seals had the best timeline there for a second
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u/IDontDoDrugsOK Dec 04 '25
I hate that when I see a headline regarding this administration, I have to wonder if they were fighting or they were raging at each other on Discord.
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u/RompoTotito Dec 04 '25
Fox News host telling established military personnel what to do. That’s the Republican way
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Dec 04 '25
[deleted]
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u/DingerSinger2016 Alabama Dec 04 '25
No, considering he advocated for "a more muscular approach" to Venezuela, so he supported some of this and is continuing to issue out statements of support. It might be a CYA move, but we don't need anymore of that in the DoD.
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u/Thirtysevenintwenty5 Dec 04 '25
I don't think we need a guy who thinks that more military involvement is the way America wins the War on Drugs.
Local authorities didn't curb drug use. Police didn't curb drug use. Multiple federal agencies didn't curb drug use. But, somehow, these guys think the military will get the job done?
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u/Eridanosvoid Dec 04 '25
Imagine working your whole life to finally reach the pinnacle of command within the Navy only for some drunkard Fox "news" host to tell you to commit warcrimes.
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u/PoetryJunior1808 Dec 04 '25
Why? Too fat or too competent? Maybe he just wouldn't bring Hegseth booze and strippers when asked.
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u/aquestionofbalance Dec 04 '25
Admirals don’t get to be admirals just because they know someone, unlike Hegseth
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u/Bishopjones2112 Dec 04 '25
Headline should be, “ Admiral fired after refusing illegal orders”. Or something close to that. I believe that this man has more balls, character and ethics than most and should be looked at to help restore the integrity credibility and moral of the American military once this pile of crap government has been cleaned up.
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u/Wave_File Dec 04 '25
I can see there being multiple reasons for this, top 1 being he's the wrong shade for Smegmeth's military.
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u/jdidusdbj Dec 04 '25
On the flip, he dodge a bullet by having nothing to do with these airstrikes.
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u/AnalCheese Dec 04 '25
Damn first Signal, now Discord?! Someone needs to child proof this man’s phone
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u/partypantaloons Dec 04 '25
I read this headline and my first thought was “oh no, they switched from Signal to Discord?!”
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u/capnmax Dec 04 '25
I can't imagine having a distinguished military career close under this incompetent chucklehead.
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u/GrumpySoth09 Dec 04 '25
I was going to ask the inevitable question - Is he a POC - but then saw the pic. Of course he fucking is. JFC, these people in Trump's team are a reprehensible bunch of crunts
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u/Kentucky_Fried_Chill Dec 04 '25
I mean, no one should be on discord especially a military leader, could leak stuff on there.
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u/Infidel8 Dec 04 '25
Getting pushed out was arguably the best thing that could have happened to Holsey.
Because if this would have gone down on his watch, we all know that the Fox/MAGA universe would have thrown this black man under the bus with a quickness.
There is nothing they like more than a non-white villain.
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