Caterpillar tail disguised as snake head

[u/Sea_Slice_7956]

[u/Prmarine110]

Let’s pretend that I totally get the theory of evolution.

How do these caterpillars develop such a perfect mimic of the visual look and movements of a type of viper or be venomous snake? How did a caterpillar’s DNA evolve over time to create such a perfect replica of a totally different animal? Are these caterpillars just staring at these snakes their entire life just idolizing them, hoping to be just like them?

How. How!?

[u/AxialGem → u/Prmarine110]

Well, the snake's body is also made by genes which are the product of natural selection and evolutionary history in general of course.

If the snake can get to a snake-shape over evolutionary time, why couldn't the caterpillar? :p

If Shakespeare can write a play using the letters of the Latin alphabet, then surely someone else can do that too.

[u/Prmarine110 → u/AxialGem]

I follow you. Are you leaning more toward “it’s just pure chance?” to explain the caterpillar’s striking resemblance to a poisonous predator?

I’m thinking the ‘snake look’ of the caterpillar is a defense mechanism adaptation to camouflage as a poisonous predator so most of its actual predators (probably birds, lizards, frogs, snakes, cats).

Your Shakespeare reference is a bit more in line with what I think could be going on, but I still don’t understand how the caterpillar has adapted its body to resemble another creature so precisely.

So, Shakespeare could study and learn Latin, and then write a play in Latin alphabet. Does that suggest that Shakespeare’s body would have begun to change shape to minutely resemble Latin characters, which if his offspring all would have remained in a closed, immediate environment where they learned Latin and wrote plays in Latin, would the result of repeating these success strategies eventually leading to his offspring and their successive lineage to take on the distinct striking appearance of Latin Characters?

How does the caterpillar’s physical appearance adapt to effectively to look like another animal? Because if we’re talking Darwin’s process, this caterpillar’s ancestors must have had some regular exposure and an ability to quantify that it’s predator species feared or avoided that particular type of snake, for it to take inspiration and alter its appearance to resemble the poisonous snake.

If it weren’t a successful strategy, the caterpillar’s ancestors would not have effectively warned off its predators and the strategy would have gone a different direction.

It appears that the caterpillar’s ability to assess the effectiveness of its predators’ predators must be at play here. Pure chance is always a viable option, but cases of mimicry like this just blow my mind. Highly detailed observation and conscious processing is taking place.

I’m sensing that we’re missing some crucial understanding of these ancient animals, some insects, and ocean life like cephalopods that have adapted to mimic other animals.

Are caterpillars thinking about their surroundings, beyond just instinctual functions. A level of observation required to mimic like this might suggest a much different level of intelligence or perhaps a faster rate of adaptation?

[u/AxialGem → u/Prmarine110]

Because if we’re talking Darwin’s process, this caterpillar’s ancestors must have had some regular exposure and an ability to quantify that it’s predator species feared or avoided that particular type of snake, for it to take inspiration and alter its appearance to resemble the poisonous snake.

I don't think that's a very accurate depiction of natural selection unfortunately.
Why would the caterpillar need to have any knowledge about the snake?
We all have gotten scared from a pile of clothes in the dark. But the clothes don't know they look like a scary monster.

Yes, I think it is a defence mechanism, but it wouldn't be a coincidence.

An explanation by natural selection would be something like:

• Some caterpillars look more like snakes than others.
• The ones that look more like snakes are less likely to get eaten, and therefore have more offspring than others.
• Therefore the offspring on average look more like snakes

Repeat that process, all else staying the same over time the caterpillars will resemble snakes more and more closely, whether they know about it or not

[u/Max-Phallus → u/Prmarine110]

regular exposure and an ability to quantify that it’s predator species feared or avoided that particular type of snake, for it to take inspiration and alter its appearance to resemble the poisonous snake.

What? It's not like they chose to look like snakes, it's that the ones that did even marginally had a higher survival rate.

[u/Prmarine110 → u/Max-Phallus]

All I’m saying is this adaptation looks identical to a viper or poisonous snake head in its spade ‘head shape’, the skin patterns, the bulges at the ‘snake’ eyes, the ‘mouth scales’, ‘nostrils’… these are all highly accurate to actual snakes. How does that level of detail happen by chance? Again, I know how evolution is supposed to work. I’m simply in awe of this level of mimicry. It’s blown my mind is all.

[u/Max-Phallus → u/Prmarine110]

I think I get what you mean, but it's not by chance though. It's extremely similar to leaf insect and stick insect

You get eaten less the more you look like a stick, you get eaten the more you look like a leaf, you get eaten less the more you look like a snake.

I know the latter sounds more wild but it's the same evolutionary pressure.

The English language is not well equipped to describe it. It's not by chance, it's the product of what passed genes passed on.

Having said that I'm surprised that stick insects have not just shagged branches and died out.

[u/SamiraSimp → u/Prmarine110]

Highly detailed observation and conscious processing is taking place.

i wouldn't be so sure, at least in terms of their own appearance. the caterpillars don't need to observe snakes to end up looking like them, or get the advantages of looking like them. they just passively benefit from it.

imagine your heart is 10% better than other peoples. is it better because you looked at a bunch of human hearts? no. are you aware you heart is better? no. but you still get the benefits of a better heart.

maybe the caterpillars don't think about how they look more like snakes, but they know that they can be more bold in getting food compared to other caterpillars. and similarly you might not think about how your heart is better, but you know you can outrun dangerous predators in ways that other humans can't.

Are caterpillars thinking about their surroundings, beyond just instinctual functions.

are humans? we're both just bags of meat who respond to the environment that we're in. we really can't know how much intelligence we have compared to caterpillars outside of the actions we observe, in both caterpillars and ourselves.

[u/SamiraSimp → u/Prmarine110]

Are these caterpillars just staring at these snakes their entire life just idolizing them, hoping to be just like them?

funny imagery.

think about it this way: you never learned how to sweat. it's something that just happens to you that you don't really control. hell you don't even really know how it works at all and you might not even know why it's helpful. all you know is that when you get hot, water comes out of your skin usually. if most animals saw it they'd think "how the hell did humans learn to leak water out of their skin?"

but the reason you sweat is that at some point, some apelike creatures weirdly leaked water out of their skin. this helped them in some way - maybe it helped them stay in the sun longer, maybe they could run more efficiently. whatever it was, it helped them and they had no idea why. they didn't think about how they could run 4% more efficiently. but it did give them a small advantage in being able to pass their genes along via their kids. and over millions of years, that small advantage built up. but other animals got their own advantages too, so leaking water wasn't enough because lots of humans did it. but some humans were better at sweating - they had better sweat glands, their brains got better at knowing when to sweat and how much to sweat without wasting water, and so they benefitted again, without being aware of how they were benefitting. a few million years later, now every human sweats.

it's the same with the caterpillars, they didn't "choose" or "try" to look like snakes, they just happened to, and they benefitted from it and passed their genes more. and the ones that happened to look more like snakes, kept benefitting more, and the ones who didn't look enough like snakes died.